For popular or very good threads
I noticed here that some points involve taking some of the Bible to be literal while other parts are non-literal. I think this point about "myths" in the Bible applies here:

What, in your opinion, was the worst way (or top 5 bad ways) in which Carrier handles evidence? I think the opposite is the case. I think most historical Jesus scholars (such as Bart Ehrman) would agree that much of what is attributed to Jesus is fictional. Bart Ehrman, a historicist, doesn’t think the Jesus really raised the dead or performed truly supernatural feats. The only question is in how much of Jesus’ story is fictional. Mythicists say “ALL of it” is fiction, where as secular historicists say that “MUCH of it” is made up, while evangelical Christians say… NONE of it is fictional.
From https://discourse.biologos.org/t/ri...ed-in-peer-review-for-the-first-time/37430/12
hmm. Not in love with a “fictional” designation, tbh; mythology is how vital wisdom was translated to the next generation, until pretty recently? Of course “myth” means “lie” now, right

So, once you learn what “Lazarus” reps—“Eleazar” in Greek—and find the mountain thrown into the sea (caesaria phillipi), i would say that it just becomes easier to understand? And being agnostic, you would be open to any new information, right? So by all means take whatever literally until seeking brings new info, and then consider that, imo.

I generally accept a literal interp easily enough, unless it involves Magical Thinking or an allegorical one provides more usefulness; but i mean really the central points, love your neighbor, forgive and you will be forgiven, pretty straightforward right. And imo for any thornier ones, we have other passages to act as Witnesses to whether we are on the right track or not

Also, the Wise Men at the Manger, Paul (of Tarsus), the Ethiopian Eunuch, and some others are usually understood to be evidence of their community’s approval of the text, which i guess would kind of infer mythology, since you wouldnt need approval for accurate journalism. There’s a pretty good arg on this on Stack Exchange…or at least a few cogent comments, it does devolve into an argument

Beliefs are also usually involved, right? Those guys…Carrier and Ehrman, they have beliefs? So iow you have to interrogate how their beliefs might be clouding their interpretations, since those in any camp would natch be forwarding the interps of those in that camp, and after long enough seeking among them, you begin to ask why they are, say, so strident about a certain position, or so against another position, and you come to the realization that what we label “beliefs” are really usually held as Absolute Truths, right, that cannot be assailed or even questioned, lest (God forbid) ___________ then happens; what do they put in the blank?

Bc it doesnt have to be what you would put in the blank, see, and fwiw i usually note some emotional existential position about the future or the past, which tbh i now take as like a warning sign, or at least a caution; is the Gospel really irrelevant if there is no immortality? Surely not, but many believers would echo that position

Which ird mean to get into here, but IDing Eve is important; she starts out as a Historical Figure that all humans derived from literally, and its only later that a comment on Kundalini is perceived, and the concept of male and female natures becomes involved, perhaps, which see any discussion of yin/yang is pretty much verboten for a believer, even if her desire will be for her man is acknowledged.

So, a good place to land on this discussion, imo; were Adam and Eve “real?” As in literal? Its the beginning of our Bible, and your position there is kinda gonna inform the rest of your reading, right? And you will be herded into taking a position by those in whatever camp, right, similar to the link you posted, when i suggest that not taking a position can also be a position :)
The simple act of observing can often alleviate or define the actual problem iow, assuming that there even is one

Which might seem like a cop out or something? But why do ppl seek to make the Bible “real?” Why does Jesus have to be literal to be meaningful to so many? After children are little, they enter a very literal stage, right; we even perceive jokes based upon their literal hearing, and understanding an allegory, which prolly seems pretty easy to you, is something that you nonetheless had to learn, and for some ppl it can be quite a struggle.

Youre fam with the thing where an adult was not able to understand a map, maybe? I kind of forget the story now, but the gist is that some adult who had never seen a map before just was not able to grasp the concept, which would surely strike us as pretty strange
 
Last edited:
  • Exceptional post!
Reactions: AgnosticBoy
Excellent perspective bbyrd. Thanks for sharing!

hmm. Not in love with a “fictional” designation, tbh; mythology is how vital wisdom was translated to the next generation, until pretty recently? Of course “myth” means “lie” now, right
Agreed. In a sense, I believe ancient history was mostly written in the form of myth. Writing for the purposes of seeking facts, which is much of history today, probably didn't get real big until later times, maybe starting with the Greek Empire.
 
  • Like
Reactions: bbyrd009
Excellent perspective bbyrd. Thanks for sharing!

hmm. Not in love with a “fictional” designation, tbh; mythology is how vital wisdom was translated to the next generation, until pretty recently? Of course “myth” means “lie” now, right
Agreed. In a sense, I believe ancient history was mostly written in the form of myth. Writing for the purposes of seeking facts, which is much of history today, probably didn't get real big until later times, maybe starting with the Greek Empire.
when history started being written by the winners, ya
 
Are Adam and Eve any less “real” if they rep our male/female urges? What are “male/female urges” anyway? See, we might barely if at all even be able to associate with the concept now, but it used to be a big deal. I guess “masculine/feminine urge” is a better way to put it? Which has unfortunately gotten more difficult to search now what with the current kundalini eruption, dei, but its still in there

Now am i saying i “know” that that is what Adam and Eve is about? No, but i do believe that currently, simply bc that is the reading that makes the most sense; “Adamu” in Akkadian (ancient Babylonian) meant something like our Adam does, “prime mover” or “first urge” or whatever, and Eve is fairly obviously meant to be a commentary on Kundalini consciousness, which is even considered a “blockage” by respected ancient yogis
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: AgnosticBoy
Are Adam and Eve any less “real” if they rep our male/female urges? What are “male/female urges” anyway? See, we might barely if at all even be able to associate with the concept now, but it used to be a big deal. I guess “masculine/feminine urge” is a better way to put it? Which has unfortunately gotten more difficult to search now what with the current kundalini eruption, dei, but its still in there

Now am i saying i “know” that that is what Adam and Eve is about? No, but i do believe that currently, simply bc that is the reading that makes the most sense; “Adamu” in Akkadian (ancient Babylonian) meant something like our Adam does, “prime mover” or “first urge” or whatever, and Eve is fairly obviously meant to be a commentary on Kundalini consciousness, which is even considered a “blockage” by respected ancient yogis
That also might depend on who you ask. As an agnostic, I like to ask how could we even know for sure, and I think the best way would have been to ask the author, but that's not possible today. The closest we might have is seeing how those during that culture or close to it interpreted Adam and Eve.

If we fast forward to Christianity, I think a lot of the early Christians believe that Adam and Eve were real people. Not sure if the Old testament outside of Genesis sheds any light on Adam and Eve. Based on your point, I've reminded that we can also look at the cultures outside of the Bible but that were still around that time, like the ancient Babylonians that had their own Adam and Eve like story.
 
  • Like
Reactions: bbyrd009
Are Adam and Eve any less “real” if they rep our male/female urges? What are “male/female urges” anyway? See, we might barely if at all even be able to associate with the concept now, but it used to be a big deal. I guess “masculine/feminine urge” is a better way to put it? Which has unfortunately gotten more difficult to search now what with the current kundalini eruption, dei, but its still in there

Now am i saying i “know” that that is what Adam and Eve is about? No, but i do believe that currently, simply bc that is the reading that makes the most sense; “Adamu” in Akkadian (ancient Babylonian) meant something like our Adam does, “prime mover” or “first urge” or whatever, and Eve is fairly obviously meant to be a commentary on Kundalini consciousness, which is even considered a “blockage” by respected ancient yogis
That also might depend on who you ask. As an agnostic, I like to ask how could we even know for sure, and I think the best way would have been to ask the author, but that's not possible today. The closest we might have is seeing how those during that culture or close to it interpreted Adam and Eve.
ive extended invitations to more than one rabbi, but none seem interested
If we fast forward to Christianity, I think a lot of the early Christians believe that Adam and Eve were real people.
Id argue that they more naturally grasped mythology, but all of my evidence is anecdotal
Not sure if the Old testament outside of Genesis sheds any light on Adam and Eve.
man, not much https://biblescan.com/search.php?q=Adam+OT plus i cant seem to get beyond the first 25 now, used to be a button for that
Based on your point, I've reminded that we can also look at the cultures outside of the Bible but that were still around that time, like the ancient Babylonians that had their own Adam and Eve like story.
you hit a wall pretty quick trying to search that; beyond common refs to the Epic of Gil and Enki creating Adamu, a “god,” anything else meaningful is kinda hard to come by https://www.thearchaeologist.org/blog/the-origin-of-adam-amp-eve-will-blow-your-mind mind = not blown lol
 
you hit a wall pretty quick trying to search that; beyond common refs to the Epic of Gil and Enki creating Adamu, a “god,” anything else meaningful is kinda hard to come by https://www.thearchaeologist.org/blog/the-origin-of-adam-amp-eve-will-blow-your-mind mind = not blown lol
Love this explanation from your source...
Considering these connections, it becomes increasingly apparent that the Adam and Eve story is not a historical account but a symbolic and cultural creation. It serves as a mythological explanation for the origins of humanity and the presence of sin and suffering in the world. While the historicity of Adam and Eve remains questionable, the story's enduring power lies in its capacity to explore complex philosophical and existential questions in an engaging and relatable manner.

So, let us appreciate the Adam and Eve tale for what it is—a brilliant fusion of ancient mythologies, conveying profound insights into the human condition. Whether we take it as literal truth or poetic metaphor, the story invites us to ponder the timeless themes of temptation, fallibility, and the quest for knowledge. After all, it is in questioning and seeking understanding that we truly embark on the journey of enlightenment, much like the mythical figures of Adam and Eve themselves.
Still this doesn't explain if the original or first Mesopotamian creation myth (Epic of Gilgamesh?) was based on fact or not.

I'll start another discussion on that either tomorrow or Thursday! Let me look into it more first!
 
  • Like
Reactions: bbyrd009
you hit a wall pretty quick trying to search that; beyond common refs to the Epic of Gil and Enki creating Adamu, a “god,” anything else meaningful is kinda hard to come by https://www.thearchaeologist.org/blog/the-origin-of-adam-amp-eve-will-blow-your-mind mind = not blown lol
Love this explanation from your source...
Considering these connections, it becomes increasingly apparent that the Adam and Eve story is not a historical account but a symbolic and cultural creation. It serves as a mythological explanation for the origins of humanity and the presence of sin and suffering in the world. While the historicity of Adam and Eve remains questionable, the story's enduring power lies in its capacity to explore complex philosophical and existential questions in an engaging and relatable manner.

So, let us appreciate the Adam and Eve tale for what it is—a brilliant fusion of ancient mythologies, conveying profound insights into the human condition. Whether we take it as literal truth or poetic metaphor, the story invites us to ponder the timeless themes of temptation, fallibility, and the quest for knowledge. After all, it is in questioning and seeking understanding that we truly embark on the journey of enlightenment, much like the mythical figures of Adam and Eve themselves.

a problem might be that no one really seems to bother trying to figure out what “eating the fruit” means, and how it applies to themselves. Or for that matter how Adam and Eve apply

Still this doesn't explain if the original or first Mesopotamian creation myth (Epic of Gilgamesh?) was based on fact or not.
Well, its usually characterized as a search for immortality?
I'll start another discussion on that either tomorrow or Thursday! Let me look into it more first!
would prolly be interesting, ive never read it or anything. Is it even available? apparently. for money.
 
Last edited:
you hit a wall pretty quick trying to search that; beyond common refs to the Epic of Gil and Enki creating Adamu, a “god,” anything else meaningful is kinda hard to come by https://www.thearchaeologist.org/blog/the-origin-of-adam-amp-eve-will-blow-your-mind mind = not blown lol
Love this explanation from your source...
Considering these connections, it becomes increasingly apparent that the Adam and Eve story is not a historical account but a symbolic and cultural creation. It serves as a mythological explanation for the origins of humanity and the presence of sin and suffering in the world. While the historicity of Adam and Eve remains questionable, the story's enduring power lies in its capacity to explore complex philosophical and existential questions in an engaging and relatable manner.

So, let us appreciate the Adam and Eve tale for what it is—a brilliant fusion of ancient mythologies, conveying profound insights into the human condition. Whether we take it as literal truth or poetic metaphor, the story invites us to ponder the timeless themes of temptation, fallibility, and the quest for knowledge. After all, it is in questioning and seeking understanding that we truly embark on the journey of enlightenment, much like the mythical figures of Adam and Eve themselves.

a problem might be that no one really seems to bother trying to figure out what “eating the fruit” means, and how it applies to themselves. Or for that matter how Adam and Eve apply

Still this doesn't explain if the original or first Mesopotamian creation myth (Epic of Gilgamesh?) was based on fact or not.
Well, its usually characterized as a search for immortality?
I'll start another discussion on that either tomorrow or Thursday! Let me look into it more first!
would prolly be interesting, ive never read it or anything. Is it even available? apparently. for money.
Replying here ..
 
  • Like
Reactions: bbyrd009
you hit a wall pretty quick trying to search that; beyond common refs to the Epic of Gil and Enki creating Adamu, a “god,” anything else meaningful is kinda hard to come by https://www.thearchaeologist.org/blog/the-origin-of-adam-amp-eve-will-blow-your-mind mind = not blown lol
Love this explanation from your source...
Considering these connections, it becomes increasingly apparent that the Adam and Eve story is not a historical account but a symbolic and cultural creation. It serves as a mythological explanation for the origins of humanity and the presence of sin and suffering in the world. While the historicity of Adam and Eve remains questionable, the story's enduring power lies in its capacity to explore complex philosophical and existential questions in an engaging and relatable manner.

So, let us appreciate the Adam and Eve tale for what it is—a brilliant fusion of ancient mythologies, conveying profound insights into the human condition. Whether we take it as literal truth or poetic metaphor, the story invites us to ponder the timeless themes of temptation, fallibility, and the quest for knowledge. After all, it is in questioning and seeking understanding that we truly embark on the journey of enlightenment, much like the mythical figures of Adam and Eve themselves.

a problem might be that no one really seems to bother trying to figure out what “eating the fruit” means, and how it applies to themselves. Or for that matter how Adam and Eve apply

Still this doesn't explain if the original or first Mesopotamian creation myth (Epic of Gilgamesh?) was based on fact or not.
Well, its usually characterized as a search for immortality?
I'll start another discussion on that either tomorrow or Thursday! Let me look into it more first!
would prolly be interesting, ive never read it or anything. Is it even available? apparently. for money.
Replying here ..
you hit a wall pretty quick trying to search that; beyond common refs to the Epic of Gil and Enki creating Adamu, a “god,” anything else meaningful is kinda hard to come by https://www.thearchaeologist.org/blog/the-origin-of-adam-amp-eve-will-blow-your-mind mind = not blown lol
Love this explanation from your source...
Considering these connections, it becomes increasingly apparent that the Adam and Eve story is not a historical account but a symbolic and cultural creation. It serves as a mythological explanation for the origins of humanity and the presence of sin and suffering in the world. While the historicity of Adam and Eve remains questionable, the story's enduring power lies in its capacity to explore complex philosophical and existential questions in an engaging and relatable manner.

So, let us appreciate the Adam and Eve tale for what it is—a brilliant fusion of ancient mythologies, conveying profound insights into the human condition. Whether we take it as literal truth or poetic metaphor, the story invites us to ponder the timeless themes of temptation, fallibility, and the quest for knowledge. After all, it is in questioning and seeking understanding that we truly embark on the journey of enlightenment, much like the mythical figures of Adam and Eve themselves.

a problem might be that no one really seems to bother trying to figure out what “eating the fruit” means, and how it applies to themselves. Or for that matter how Adam and Eve apply

Still this doesn't explain if the original or first Mesopotamian creation myth (Epic of Gilgamesh?) was based on fact or not.
Well, its usually characterized as a search for immortality?
I'll start another discussion on that either tomorrow or Thursday! Let me look into it more first!
would prolly be interesting, ive never read it or anything. Is it even available? apparently. for money.
Replying here ..
wow, putting an internal link really jacked with my ipad, lol. it and xenforo constantly fight anyway.

never heard of the Christ Myth Theory, at least as an organized theory, hmm; ill hafta look that up.

it isnt too hard to cultivate the impression that the Bible authors had no probs taking the best from other wisdom mythologies and adapting them. ill check out the other thread, tks