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What's the meaning of the Bible? What's it about? It can be summed up very simply as this: the vindication of Jehovah God's name through the ransom sacrifice of Christ Jesus.

I can explain this further with first a short answer. The tree of the knowledge of good and bad represented, to Adam, Jehovah God's sovereignty. That is, his right, as our creator, to decide for us what was good and what was bad until we, like children, matured to the point where we could do that for ourselves within the parameters of that sovereignty. Knowledge is facts, information, and skills acquired by a person through experience or education; the theoretical or practical understanding of a subject. The knowledge in this case is experience. Good and bad had been defined by Jehovah and at that point was very simple. Fill the earth and subdue it, that was good. Don't touch or eat the fruit of the tree, that was bad. The knowledge Adam and Eve had acquired was the decision to decide for themselves what was good and what was bad. That's why they suddenly considered nudity to be bad. (Genesis 2:25; 3:6-11)

The footnote to Genesis 2:17 in the 1966 Jerusalem Bible explains it really well: "This knowledge is a privilege which God reserves to himself and which man, by sinning, is to lay hands on, Genesis 3:5, 22. Hence it does not mean omniscience, which fallen man does not possess; nor is it moral discrimination, for unfallen man already had it and God could not refuse it to a rational being. It is the power of deciding for himself what is good and what is evil and of acting accordingly, a claim to complete moral independence by which man refuses to recognise his status as a created being. The first sin was an attack on God’s sovereignty, a sin of pride."

The long answer explains it further by giving you a more accurate understanding of the Bible and so, hopefully, allowing you to more fully understand the meaning of the short answer.

God created Michael first. Then Michael, as Jehovah's master worker, created everything through Jehovah's Holy Spirit or active force. (Genesis 1:26; 3:22; Proverbs 8:22-31; Colossians 1:15-17; John 8:23; 17:5) The word Holy means sacred, or belonging to God. Spirit means an invisible active force, like wind, breath, mental inclination. Something that we can't see but that produces results that we can see. So, the holy spirit is God's active force, invisible to us. The first thing that Michael, through Jehovah's holy spirit, created was the spiritual heavens. This was followed by the spirit beings, often called angels. (Job 38:4-7) Then the physical heavens, or space as we know it, including Earth, the stars, sun and moon and finally everything on Earth eventually concluding with Adam and Eve.

The angels existed for a very long time before man was created, and they had time to mature, like children, so that they knew what was good and bad from their creator. It is important that you understand that being created perfect is much like being born a baby. Parents see their newborn children as perfect, but think about it. They can't walk, talk, feed themselves, go to the bathroom properly - they are bald, toothless, chubby, defenseless little creatures. Perfect in the sense that they have great potential and innocence.

By the time man was created the angels had already reached their potential.

On the seventh day, when the creation was complete, God "rested." This doesn't mean that God was tired or that he stopped working, it means he set aside a period of time in which we were allowed to mature, as the angels had done. When we would have accomplished this, we could, as the Bible says, enter into God's Day of rest. In other words, the seventh "day" or more accurately, period of creation, continues to this day. So, the knowledge of what is good and what is bad is the eventual possession of that maturity. The ability to decide for ourselves what was good and what was bad, predicated upon an acknowledgement of our own accord, of our creator, Jehovah's rightful sovereignty. (Psalm 95:11; Isaiah 40:28; John 5:17; Romans 8:22; Hebrews 4:1-5)

This is why, once Adam rejected that concept by deciding for himself what was good and bad before he had matured enough to best do that, Jehovah had to shorten his life from living forever to eventually dying. Because if he and his offspring, mankind, were allowed to live forever under those conditions, they would never reach that maturity and they would bring about an endless series of chaos and destruction.

So, in effect, Satan charged Jehovah with the crime of withholding some knowledge from mankind. He knew this wasn't true, but he wanted to try and seize control of the power that Jehovah's sovereignty represented even if it meant destroying all that it represented and everything else in the process. Even destroying himself. Like a jealous child breaking a toy so no one else can have it.

But to Jehovah justice is very important. You can't just wave away a crime due to the damage that has been incurred. So, he allowed the charges against him to be tried, as in a court of law. He allowed Satan's theory to be tested in a manner of speaking. With the stipulation that 1. he wasn't going to allow it to prevent his original purpose for the angels and mankind from being fulfilled beyond what was necessary to establish his defense. That they should live forever in peace, in heaven and on earth respectively. And 2. that justice would be done.

So immediately after Adam's sin Jehovah put in motion the plan for all of this to take place while Satan's theory was being tested. In a basic sense the steps were as follows.

1. Select a group of people.
2. Form a nation for those people.
3. Demonstrate to them what was going on by establishing a law which they couldn't keep due to their imperfection, or the incomplete nature of their lack of the aforementioned maturity.
4. Provide a way out through a Messiah or Christ, namely, Michael, who volunteered due to his love for mankind and his father, Jehovah's purpose. So, Michael came to earth as a man, Jesus the Christ.

One final point of consideration regarding mankind. From Jehovah's perspective the life he created, the life he gave us, is sacred. You may recall that sacred means belonging to God. According to the Bible our soul is our life, represented by our blood, so blood is sacred. To kill someone, or take their soul, requires the payment of the killer's own soul because it is taking something sacred to Jehovah. So, the blood sacrifices represented a respect for or acknowledgement of his created life granted to us. For example, if a person was found murdered and no one knew who did the killing then they had to sacrifice a bull and spill its blood on the ground as a symbolic acknowledgement of God's possession. Sacred life. A sort of gesture of justice. (Deuteronomy 21:1-9)

Since we inherited sin through Adam then the only man who could pay the price for the blood of Adam, which had been perfect and without sin from the start until he did sin - was the blood of a man who was without sin.
 
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There's a couple of things I could ask about, but what I'm real curious about is your details about Michael. I thought Jesus was God's first creation. For instance, you cited Colossians chapter 1 but that refers to Jesus as being the "first born of all creation". No mention of Michael in those passages.

What is your biblical basis for believing that Michael is the first creation and part of God's creative power?
 
There's a couple of things I could ask about, but what I'm real curious about is your details about Michael. I thought Jesus was God's first creation. For instance, you cited Colossians chapter 1 but that refers to Jesus as being the "first born of all creation". No mention of Michael in those passages.

What is your biblical basis for believing that Michael is the first creation and part of God's creative power?

I'll answer your question briefly and then post an article I published years ago in response to the SAB. There isn't a specific passage that states emphatically that Michael was God's first creation, but Jesus was a man born long after God's creation took place. The man Jesus was born and died. The word angel means messenger. Angels sometimes took on physical form when coming to earth to relay messages from God to people. Jesus was the Logos, or word, of God. Spokesperson, arch messenger. The name Michael means "Who is like God?" Jesus the man wasn't the first time Michael came here in the capacity of messenger. With Adam and Eve, visiting Lot, Gideon, leading the Israelites out of Egypt, etc. In the case of Jesus, he was born here rather than merely taking on physical form.


For some reason, which I could never quite understand, it seems extremely difficult for some people, especially skeptics, to understand that Jesus and Michael are the same. Let's look at the facts regarding Jesus and Michael.

1. Jesus existed in heaven before he came to earth. Proverbs 8:22; John 1:1,3, 14; 3:13; 8:23, 58; 17:5; Colossians 1:15-17; 1 John 2:13; Revelation 3:14 all speak of Jesus’ existence before the world began, in fact before anything was created Jesus was created. Before Heaven, the heavens, the Earth, and of course, man. He is the firstborn of creation, the beginning of creation, he came from somewhere other than this world, he descended from heaven. There can be no doubt that he had a pre-human existence in heaven before he came to Earth as the man Jesus Christ.

2. Jesus’ position in heaven before he came to the earth must have been an important one, considering he was the first of Jehovah’s creation and all things were created through him and for him. (Proverbs 8:22; John 1:3) That means not only the heavens and earth as we know them but the angels and heaven as well. Jesus is referred to as the "word of God," this means he is the spokesperson. (John 1:1) As the spokesperson for Jehovah God we can assume that when an angel performed some important tasks on earth, like guiding and protecting the early Israelites from Egypt or taking the physical form of men in performing an important task, it was likely Michael as he existed before he came to earth as Jesus.

3. The term archangel means chief of the angels. Arch means chief or principal. The term is only applied to one angel in the Bible. Michael. It is always used in the singular. There is only one archangel. The term archangel itself only appears twice throughout Scripture. At 1 Thessalonians 4:16 Paul writes of Jesus as having the voice of the archangel, and Jude 9 indicates Michael disputed with Satan over the body of Moses. So, there is a connection with Jesus as well as an indication that Michael was connected in some way with the people of the exodus of Egypt.

4. Other than Jehovah God himself only two people in the Bible are said to be in charge of or over the angels. They are Michael and Jesus Christ. The name Michael appears only five times throughout Scripture. At Daniel 10:13, 21; 12:1 / Jude 9 and Revelation 12:7.

5. Are there any others who believe Michael and Jesus are the same? Yes, there are many. Joseph Benson, E. W. Hengstenberg, J. P. Lange, Butterworth, Cruden, Taylor, Guyse all wrote that Michael and Jesus were the same.

Clarke's Commentary (Adam Clarke) - "Let it be observed that the word archangel is never found in the plural number in the sacred writings. There can be properly only one archangel, one chief or head of all the angelic host .... Michael is this archangel, and head of all the angelic orders .... hence by this personage, in the Apocalypse, many understand the Lord Jesus."

W. E. Vine - the "voice of the archangel" (1 Thessalonians 4:16) is apparently "the voice of the Lord Jesus Christ" - An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, p. 64.

The 1599 Geneva Study Bible: Christ is the prince of angels and head of the Church, who bears that iron rod."

The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia: - "The earlier Protestant scholars usually identified Michael with the preincarnate Christ, finding support for their view, not only in the juxtaposition of the "child" and the archangel in Rev. 12, but also in the attributes ascribed to him in Daniel" – vol. 3, p. 2048, Eerdmans Publishing, 1984 printing.

John Calvin: "I embrace the opinion of those who refer this to the person of Christ, because it suits the subject best to represent him as standing forward for the defense of his elect people." - J. Calvin, Commentaries on the Book of the Prophet Daniel, trans. T. Myers (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1979), vol. 2 p. 369.

Brown's Dictionary of the Bible - on 'Michael' and 'Angel,' both these words do sometimes refer to Christ; and also affirms that Christ is the Archangel.

The NIV Study Bible - "The Angel of the LORD .... Traditional Christian interpretation has held that this 'angel' was a preincarnate manifestation of Christ as God's Messenger-Servant. It may be ..., the angel could speak on behalf of the One who sent him." - footnote for Gen. 16:7. Zondervan Publishing, 1985

Smith's Bible Dictionary (says of Michael) - "Angel of the Lord. ... Christ's visible form before the incarnation. p. 40"

Today's Dictionary of the Bible - "Angel of the Lord [angel of Jehovah] - occurs many times in the Old Testament, where in almost every instance it means a supernatural personage to be distinguished from Jehovah .... Some feel the pre-incarnate Christ is meant." Bethany House Publ., 1982, p. 39.​
 
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I agree with some of your points, and others I'm not sure about yet. I will say that you presented your case well. I think some just slap the JW label on the idea of Michael being Jesus, and they think that's enough to dismiss it.
 
I agree with some of your points, and others I'm not sure about yet. I will say that you presented your case well. I think some just slap the JW label on the idea of Michael being Jesus, and they think that's enough to dismiss it.

Everybody does that with everything, we just don't realize it, we convince ourselves otherwise, but the old adage is true there in a figurative sense, regarding the path of least resistance.
 
What's the meaning of the Bible? What's it about? It can be summed up very simply as this: the vindication of Jehovah God's name through the ransom sacrifice of Christ Jesus.
ok, it might be summed up that way, but i suggest that there are better ways to grok the meaning of the Bible. For one, the contrived Name “Jehovah” was not invented until the Masoretes chose to, basically, refrain from pronouncing YHWH, just in a different manner than Jews do, with their habit of G-d and the like; perhaps not realizing the information that is meant to be conveyed by YHWH, which would be like our trying to pronounce AEOU (those being the Hebrew vowels)
I can explain this further with first a short answer. The tree of the knowledge of good and bad represented, to Adam, Jehovah God's sovereignty. That is, his right, as our creator, to decide for us what was good and what was bad until we, like children, matured to the point where we could do that for ourselves within the parameters of that sovereignty. Knowledge is facts, information, and skills acquired by a person through experience or education; the theoretical or practical understanding of a subject. The knowledge in this case is experience. Good and bad had been defined by Jehovah and at that point was very simple. Fill the earth and subdue it, that was good. Don't touch or eat the fruit of the tree, that was bad. The knowledge Adam and Eve had acquired was the decision to decide for themselves what was good and what was bad. That's why they suddenly considered nudity to be bad. (Genesis 2:25; 3:6-11)

The footnote to Genesis 2:17 in the 1966 Jerusalem Bible explains it really well: "This knowledge is a privilege which God reserves to himself and which man, by sinning, is to lay hands on, Genesis 3:5, 22. Hence it does not mean omniscience, which fallen man does not possess; nor is it moral discrimination, for unfallen man already had it and God could not refuse it to a rational being. It is the power of deciding for himself what is good and what is evil and of acting accordingly, a claim to complete moral independence by which man refuses to recognise his status as a created being. The first sin was an attack on God’s sovereignty, a sin of pride."

The long answer explains it further by giving you a more accurate understanding of the Bible and so, hopefully, allowing you to more fully understand the meaning of the short answer.

God created Michael first. Then Michael, as Jehovah's master worker, created everything through Jehovah's Holy Spirit or active force. (Genesis 1:26; 3:22; Proverbs 8:22-31; Colossians 1:15-17; John 8:23; 17:5) The word Holy means sacred, or belonging to God. Spirit means an invisible active force, like wind, breath, mental inclination. Something that we can't see but that produces results that we can see. So, the holy spirit is God's active force, invisible to us. The first thing that Michael, through Jehovah's holy spirit, created was the spiritual heavens. This was followed by the spirit beings, often called angels. (Job 38:4-7) Then the physical heavens, or space as we know it, including Earth, the stars, sun and moon and finally everything on Earth eventually concluding with Adam and Eve.

The angels existed for a very long time before man was created, and they had time to mature, like children, so that they knew what was good and bad from their creator. It is important that you understand that being created perfect is much like being born a baby. Parents see their newborn children as perfect, but think about it. They can't walk, talk, feed themselves, go to the bathroom properly - they are bald, toothless, chubby, defenseless little creatures. Perfect in the sense that they have great potential and innocence.

By the time man was created the angels had already reached their potential.

On the seventh day, when the creation was complete, God "rested." This doesn't mean that God was tired or that he stopped working, it means he set aside a period of time in which we were allowed to mature, as the angels had done. When we would have accomplished this, we could, as the Bible says, enter into God's Day of rest. In other words, the seventh "day" or more accurately, period of creation, continues to this day. So, the knowledge of what is good and what is bad is the eventual possession of that maturity. The ability to decide for ourselves what was good and what was bad, predicated upon an acknowledgement of our own accord, of our creator, Jehovah's rightful sovereignty. (Psalm 95:11; Isaiah 40:28; John 5:17; Romans 8:22; Hebrews 4:1-5)

This is why, once Adam rejected that concept by deciding for himself what was good and bad before he had matured enough to best do that, Jehovah had to shorten his life from living forever to eventually dying. Because if he and his offspring, mankind, were allowed to live forever under those conditions, they would never reach that maturity and they would bring about an endless series of chaos and destruction.

So, in effect, Satan charged Jehovah with the crime of withholding some knowledge from mankind. He knew this wasn't true, but he wanted to try and seize control of the power that Jehovah's sovereignty represented even if it meant destroying all that it represented and everything else in the process. Even destroying himself. Like a jealous child breaking a toy so no one else can have it.

But to Jehovah justice is very important. You can't just wave away a crime due to the damage that has been incurred. So, he allowed the charges against him to be tried, as in a court of law. He allowed Satan's theory to be tested in a manner of speaking. With the stipulation that 1. he wasn't going to allow it to prevent his original purpose for the angels and mankind from being fulfilled beyond what was necessary to establish his defense. That they should live forever in peace, in heaven and on earth respectively. And 2. that justice would be done.

So immediately after Adam's sin Jehovah put in motion the plan for all of this to take place while Satan's theory was being tested. In a basic sense the steps were as follows.

1. Select a group of people.
2. Form a nation for those people.
3. Demonstrate to them what was going on by establishing a law which they couldn't keep due to their imperfection, or the incomplete nature of their lack of the aforementioned maturity.
4. Provide a way out through a Messiah or Christ, namely, Michael, who volunteered due to his love for mankind and his father, Jehovah's purpose. So, Michael came to earth as a man, Jesus the Christ.

One final point of consideration regarding mankind. From Jehovah's perspective the life he created, the life he gave us, is sacred. You may recall that sacred means belonging to God. According to the Bible our soul is our life, represented by our blood, so blood is sacred. To kill someone, or take their soul, requires the payment of the killer's own soul because it is taking something sacred to Jehovah. So, the blood sacrifices represented a respect for or acknowledgement of his created life granted to us. For example, if a person was found murdered and no one knew who did the killing then they had to sacrifice a bull and spill its blood on the ground as a symbolic acknowledgement of God's possession. Sacred life. A sort of gesture of justice. (Deuteronomy 21:1-9)

Since we inherited sin through Adam then the only man who could pay the price for the blood of Adam, which had been perfect and without sin from the start until he did sin - was the blood of a man who was without sin.
You might see how that pov puts you ”under the law,” For under the law nearly every sin requires blood, and understand that No son of man may die for another’s sins has not been repealed or anything. Now granted, this leads to a fairly large conundrum, but imo it is meant to be understood rather than ignored.
 
ok, it might be summed up that way, but i suggest that there are better ways to grok the meaning of the Bible. For one, the contrived Name “Jehovah” was not invented until the Masoretes chose to, basically, refrain from pronouncing YHWH, just in a different manner than Jews do, with their habit of G-d and the like; perhaps not realizing the information that is meant to be conveyed by YHWH, which would be like our trying to pronounce AEOU (those being the Hebrew vowels)

The Masoretes only replaced the tetragrammaton (YHWH) with the generic term Adonai, which means simply LORD and isn't a name, it's a title. Jehovah is the Enghlish translation of Yahweh. Since they didn't write out the vowels no one alive knows how YHWH would have been pronounced. In order to come up with Yahweh they just had to guess. They removed the name YHWH out of a superstitious fear of the common people pronouncing the name. So, they inserted Adonai and read that instead. (Jeremiah 23:27)

Names are always translated, never transliterated. Jehovah is the English translation of Yahweh. From the Latinized JeHoWaH. Latin doesn't have a Y so they replaced it with the I or J (think Latin for Jesus, Iēsous, thus the Spanish pronunciation vs the English. With an H sound instead of a J sound). Jesus and his contemporaries were multilingual. Theys spoke Aramaic for the most part, but also Latin, Greek and Hebrew. They also had variations in names to reflect this. The Hebrew Saul was the Latin Paul. The Hebrew Yeshua was the Greek, Aramaic, Latin, English et cetera. Jesus name in Hebrew is translated to Joshua, but with the variations in between we get the Latinized Jesus, pronounced with a J sound.

When you are pronouncing names like Jeremiah, you don't use the Hebrew Yeremiah, as if the English variation were somehow inferior. 'Cause you're speaking English. Not ancient Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic, et cetera. You say Jeremiah. In English you say Jehovah, not Yahweh. In Italian you say Geova. It's pronounced a lot of different ways. There is no "right" way. Not even Hebrew. It depends upon your language.
 
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Your comments in your Intro sums up the Bible really well, as well (posted below). It doesn't come off as being too fundamentalist, as in, having too much of a rosy picture of the Bible. I treat the Bible as I do any other literature. However, I also don't want to be like the skeptics that take a hyper-skeptical approach to the Bible, almost as if they want every word or dot verified with evidence.

I believe the Bible is the uninspired and fallible translation of the inspired and infallible word of Jehovah God. The meaning of the Bible can be summarized as being, after a brief introduction (Genisis 1:1-3:15), all about the vindication of Jehovah God's name through the ransom sacrifice of Christ Jesus.
 
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Your comments in your Intro sums up the Bible really well, as well (posted below). It doesn't come off as being too fundamentalist, as in, having too much of a rosy picture of the Bible. I treat the Bible as I do any other literature. However, I also don't want to be like the skeptics that take a hyper-skeptical approach to the Bible, almost as if they want every word or dot verified with evidence.

I believe the Bible is the uninspired and fallible translation of the inspired and infallible word of Jehovah God. The meaning of the Bible can be summarized as being, after a brief introduction (Genisis 1:1-3:15), all about the vindication of Jehovah God's name through the ransom sacrifice of Christ Jesus.

My experience of over 30 years with debating skeptics online is that they don't want evidence, they want confirmation bias. They also overestimate evidence as if it "proof" but instead of examining the Bible they regurgitate propaganda which is actually a response to apostate tradition and traditional theology rather than the Biblical. The Bible doesn't say the soul is immortal, it doesn't say the earth is flat, or there's a literal hell where demons torture the immortal soul, or all good people go to heaven, or the trinity, cross, Christmas, Easter or rapture. All of that is theological tradition from Babylon introduced to apostate religion long after the Bible was written. The majority of "skeptics," the militant atheists, are really ideologues.

I don't look at the Bible like literature, I look at it like a telephone book or dictionary. A tool rather than a textbook or book of stories. I look at the Bible like an archaeologist digging through the dirt (theology) to find expressions of the past.
 
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