What's your favorite topic on religion or theism to debate on?

[bbyrd009]

Yes, that area is for those who are part of the Agnostic user group. Here are some of the requirements (also posted in full here):
- Agnostics who don't identify with the atheist nor theist label.
- Agnostic theists and agnostic atheists can also join but they must also identify with being a 'freethinker'. This type of agnosticism fits with Huxley's brand of agnosticism.
2. You need to be a part of the Agnostic usergroup to post here. Email or PM to add you to that usergroup.

If you those requirements fit you, then feel free to PM me you, and I can add you to the user group. Anyone else can do the same.

loved the freethinker article, seen some approach to it before, seems to describe me, but i also might be kidding myself lol

 

[Invited_Christian]

ok well idk why, imo that is your gnosticism rearing its ugly and misinformed head, i mean why cannot punishment be age-long aionios yet Yah be reigning forever aidios, and pls take this as a rhetorical question.

It is common sense rearing its head. If you find it hideous that's your problem, not mine.

Take aionios:
The same word are used for both matters. It is pure preferential selectivity on your part to apply aionios a temporary meaning in one case and an eternal in the other.

καὶ βασιλεύσουσιν εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων. Rev. 22:5 - "and they shall reign forever and ever."

καὶ ὁ καπνὸς τοῦ βασανισμοῦ αὐτῶν εἰς αἰῶνας αἰώνων ἀναβαίνει, Rev. 14:9 - "And the smoke of their torment goes up
forever and ever . . .

Now if you argue that God can punish for an age terminating that time of punishment, that I do also see in the Bible.
I do not mean Purgatory of Catholicism.
But it is clear that remedial punishment which has a termination point is also there in the NT.

Ie. Matt. 5:26 -
Amplified Bible
I assure you and most solemnly say to you, you will not come out of there until you have paid the last cent.

The context of these words from the mouth of Jesus is related to discipline to His disciples AFTER His second coming.
So during the age of the 1000 year millennium which PRECEDES the eternal age of the new heaven and new earth, some
saved may undergo dispensational punishment. "UNTIL you have paid the last cent" indicates a termination point to the punishment.

Having said that, the concept of a dispensational punishment should not be stretched farther than is indicated.
Dispenasation punishment of the redeemed is remedial and educational.
Eternal punishment of the unredeemable and hopelessly rebellious by choice, is not remedial. It is retribution- even divine "vengence."

Second Thess. 1:8,9 -
And to you who are being afflicted, rest with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with the angels of His power, in flaming fire, rendering vengeance to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
They will pay the penalty of eternal destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His strength . . .

You don't seem to get it that some creatures want nothing to do with God.
We see in the most severe, most uttermost expression of God's displeasure upon the followers of the Antichrist, that they hate God more than they love comfort. No amount of punishment will deter some because the enjoyment of following Satan into everlasting revolt is more to them then salvation from judgment.

Revelation 16:8,9 -
And the fourth poured out his bowl upon the sun; and it was given to it to burn men with fire.
And men were burned with great heat, and they blasphemed the name of God, who has the authority over these plagues, and they did not repent so as to give Him glory.

Verses 10,11 -
And the fifth poured out his bowl upon the throne of the beast; and his kingdom became darkened; and they gnawed their tongues for pain and blasphemed the God of heaven for their pains and for their sores; and they did not repent of their works.

This is at the end of the pouring out of the seven bowls which concludes God's wrath on the world of the unrepentant.
You can see that the addiction to utter rebellion against all that is Divine has so encased men, gnawing their tongues in pain is preferred to repenting and giving God the glory.

It is indeed too tragic that the heart can be so hardened that neither God's mercy or judgment can dislodge them from their CHOICE to throw their lot in with Satan.

At the final bowl of His indignation (Rev. 16:21) STILL blasphemy toward God rather than repentance-
And great hail, every stone about the weight of a talent, came down out of heaven upon men; and men blasphemed God for the plague of the hail, because the plague of it is exceedingly great.

Now for something positive. The salvation of SO effective, even saving man into Christ likeness BECAUSE Jesus lives forever to intercede for His people. He is an eternal High Priest with and indestructible life. He can save us to the UTTERMOST. That is to save us to be the expression of God in humanity in life and nature (yet not in His Godhead or position).

Hebrews 7:24,25 -
But He, because He abides forever, has His priesthood unalterable.
Hence also He is able to save to the uttermost those who come forward to God through Him, since He lives always to intercede for them.

You may wonder why I would talk about this in the midst of a debate about eternal punishment.
From my experience with debates with Annihilationists and Universalists the discussion goes like this -
They get you to talk more and more and more about eternal perdition. Then eventually they argue
that "You Christians, that's ALL you ever talk about - hell - hell - and more hell. How sadistic."

That is usually how it goes. "Defend eternal punishement that's not in the Bible" . . . . (then) "How come all you like to do is talk about punishment Mr. Christian ??"

I spend 12 years on one forum participating in a long drawn out returning again and again to the this topic. I mean certain posters kept returning again and again to the subject with me. Eventually all they had was slander against me.

So I will not go over some of this endlessly here with you.
There is much more in the revelation of the bible besides eternal punishment.

I skipped down to the end of your post and you say something about "last word to you."
So let's just leave it at that. You can have another opinion.
I gave you some of my reasons for taking the Scripture at face value on this difficult subject.

 

[AgnosticBoy]

My favorite topic (or at least one of them) is that Jesus Christ is a Person to know as an intimate way of fellowship.
This rather that a philosophy, system, book of rules to keep, or other impersonal concept no matter how good.

I'm gonna put on my skeptic hat and question if someone can reliably get to know a person that has been deceased for over 2,000 years.

Here's the link if anyone wants to join in...

Is there a reliable way of knowing that you have a relationship with Jesus?

On one thread, a member suggested that someone can have a relationship with Jesus. To a skeptic, this would seem very odd since Jesus has been long dead. When you are in a relationship with someone, this usually involves both parties communicating with each other, spending time with each...

theagnosticforum.com