What's your favorite topic on religion or theism to debate on?

[bbyrd009]

One of the by products of modern relatavism is that people are reluctant to claim to know anything with certainty.

"Do ya know what I mean ??" is a frequent phrase meant to portray humilty. LIke - "Do you feel my subjective feeling here? Do you known what I MEAN ?"

Now arrogance and dogmatism is one error. False humilty and fear to say "I know what I know" is an opposite extreme.
The Apostle Paul wrote some 13 so books of the 27 New Testament books. He said of himself and other Christians "We know in part."
And he said today we see through a glass darkly. The day will come when we will know even as we are known.

This is humilty that we still have questions because we know "in part" the great truths of the New Testament.
On the other hand the Apostle John was not ashamed to admit that "WE KNOW . . ." some things.

ah, for a little more humility lol
i would caution not to forget that it maybe took Paul to bring out “but i am the worst of examples”

WE KNOW that we are of God, and the whole world lies in the evil one.

And WE KNOW that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding that we might know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

As a Christian I know some things in part today.
But there are some things that I KNOW too.
Receiving Jesus Christ we ought not be ashamed to confess some things we KNOW.

confessing mistakes openly would be refreshing eh

 

[bbyrd009]

You may be referring to Jesus saying that if He testified concerning Himself His testimony was not valid? (John 5:31)
And if Jesus's testimony concerning Himself is not reliable where does that leave the rest of us?
Yet, He also said latter He testimony was 100% reliable because He knew where He came from. Jesus answered and said to them, Even if I testify concerning Myself, My testimony is true, for I know where I came from and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from or where I am going. (John 8:14)
So we have both Jesus saying ANOTHER must testify with Him.
And we have Him saying His testimony alone is reliable because He knows what He knows.
I receive BOTH passages. God uttered both. So I trust both.

but you do not know where I come from or where I am going

I also have to consider the nature of the New Covenant promised by God in Jeremiah 31:33,34.

But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares Jehovah: I will put My law in their inward parts and write it upon their hearts; and I will be their God, and they will be My people. And they will no longer teach, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, Know Jehovah; for all of them will know Me, from the little one among them even to the great one among them, declares Jehovah, for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.
There is here a promise of a knowing which is very deep. In some sense what others say is inconsequential.
Check your experience. Have you ever had, let's say, a Jehovah's Witness try to convince you that you did not know Jehovah God?

the Masoretic contrivance? i would openly admit that i do not know him tho

They just didn't realize the inward confirmation of the new covenant - "for all of them [in the new covenant] will know Me, from the little one among them even to the great one among them, declares Jehovah,

and doesnt most everyone have some sort of Christ consciousness now? I think the argument could be made

Now THIS very say assured Jesus is now "one spirit" with the one who is joined to Him.
And in resurrection He teaches that we WILL KNOW that He is in us.
In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. (John 14;20)



This is of course a mistake.
For Christ Himself is the real life as so much of the Gospel of John says.

At a certain point I had a prayer which God was faithful to answer. I prayed something like this - "Lord put me with some Christian who will encourage my faith rather than discourage it."

God really answered that prayer. Even when I was not faithful He was. He put me with brothers in Christ who could encourage me rather than give me reasons for countless cynical obstacles.

I do not mean that I found a Christian UTOPIA. I mean He led me to churches where the Holy Spirit always seems to have the final word. Such gatherings do exist.

i learned a lot in cult of sol congregations myself, and while ill never go back, i value the education

Christ is truly REAL and one of a kind (unusual). He occupies a class of people with whom there is no other.
We may say there are many prophets, many teachers, many guides, etc.
There is only One God-man who transfigured Himself to be a divine life giving Spirit.
He is the last Adam and the second man - the head of a whole new race of humanity.

well, but that is to avoid the point,

all this is amounting to a defense of “He is certainly an unusual Person since He is not yet manifested physically before me,” a gnostic statement, that it could at least be argued is not spiritually correct, since we have If someone tells you “Here He is, over here” dont bother to go see, You search the writings for word of Me when here I am right in front of you, We are the body of Christ, etc

So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul”; the last Adam became a life-giving Spirit. (1 Cor. 15:45)

The first Adam is indeed distant from memory. But this "last Adam" is a Person whose impact on history has been cataclysmic.
BC and AD virtually mean - "Since this Person Jesus Christ has come to the world, nothing will be the same."

Do you agree?

ha well its all in your head, and also yes

I believe that "a life giving Spirit" means a Spirit that GIVES Christ as divine and eternal life into man.
He who has the Son has the life. It is up to us to learn to enjoy this life.
It is up to us to cease to live in the old way and practice the new way of living in union with Christ.
Many great teachers lived and died.
Only this unusual Person, lived, died, rose again AND can impart Himself INTO man's being.


There will come the day when outwardly and objectively we will SEE this One.

the kingdom does not come by observation
so not sure i could agree with the “outwardly and objectively”
if you arent seeing it
right now,
then you just arent seeing it right now

You know God appeared on the top of Mt. Sinai in a dramatic way for some 40 days.
However, the people eventually got bored. They even sought to make a golden calf and get a new leader to return them to Egypt.

I think the lesson in this is that God must do an INWARD work. A purely OUTWARD manifestation will not change man that much.
Forty days of dramatid manifestation to a great multitude of Israelites demonstrated that.

So in the new covenant the apostles emphazises that we must realize that Jesus Christ is living within us.
Test yourselves whether you are in the faith; prove yourselves. Or do you not realize about yourselves that Jesus Christ is in you, unless you are disapproved? (2 Cor. 13:5)

For the Christian Jesus the miraculous and atypical unusual God-man is not only in them.
He must take shape, be formed, expand, spread, and fill up them in personality.
My children, with whom I travail again in birth until Christ is formed in you, (Gal. 4:19)

What a salvation!
From within divine life is growing and from without divine life will "swallow" us up too - swallowed up by life.

" in that we do not desire to be unclothed, but clothed upon, that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. Now He who has wrought us for this very thing is God, who has given to us the Spirit as a pledge. "



I recommend that one learn to say a faith filled "Amen" to every line of Scripture.
The greatest blessing for me is to learn to "Amen" what is said everywhere.

But I came to the Old Testament through the New Testament.
I came to Christ with a typical filter of modern skepticism.
What happend to me was that gradually I noticed that Jesus referred to accounts in the Old Testament.
Not immediately, but with time I reasoned - "Well, if it was good for Jesus, it must be good."

This was a gradual process with me. But eventually I embraced the whole Bible as completely reliable.
Now what it actually SAYS . . . may require caution.
But every word of God is true and also nourishing, feeding the spirit.

Jeremiah 15:16 shows the man of God should "EAT" the words of God. They are truth and they are sustenance.
Your words were found, and I ate them, and your words became to me a joy and the delight of my heart, for I am called by your name, O LORD, God of hosts.

your post reminds me of the value ive gotten from reading from a lexicon, and building my own translations word by word
texts just tend to get flavored, scribed up by those translating them; never hurts to go back to the original imo

 

[AgnosticBoy]

Remember when you looked in a mirror and were not able to see your “self?”

Careful. Some might think you're getting in the "woo" territory. Deepak Chopra::coughs

 

[bbyrd009]

Careful. Some might think you're getting in the "woo" territory. Deepak Chopra::coughs

ah, wasnt aware he got into that…
its just an observation that one might make, with any 12-16 month old, that we forget that we did too

but theres a thing that backs it up too; if you were to write down a description of yourself that avoided physical characteristic, i guess none of your acquaintances would recognize “you” in it, the “you” that you have invented, according to psychology. Their description would be completely different, apparently

so there is a sense in which “i” am a figment of my imagination, and you would actually have a more accurate description of “me”

 

[bbyrd009]

Careful. Some might think you're getting in the "woo" territory. Deepak Chopra::coughs

hey, i was looking for ICs new thread, and discovered i have insufficient privileges to reply here https://theagnosticforum.com/thread...any-universes-in-a-multi-verse.426/#post-2373
?

 

[Invited_Christian]

your post reminds me of the value ive gotten from reading from a lexicon, and building my own translations word by word
texts just tend to get flavored, scribed up by those translating them; never hurts to go back to the original imo

If I drop my understanding of the New Testament here and pick up your kind of suspicious view on what I shared, what will it do for me?

In Christ I have a sense of origin and destiny.
In Christ I have peace with my entire past and hope for the future forever.
In Christ I have enjoyoment of fellowship with God, joy in my deepest being, and a loving family world-wide.
In Christ I have a meaning for my life in this universe and moment by moment confidence and joy I am on the winning side of things.

Now if I drop all this and instead pick up your philosophy what does it offer me?

 

[bbyrd009]

If I drop my understanding of the New Testament here and pick up your kind of suspicious view on what I shared, what will it do for me?

it isnt that i am suspicious so much as that the language/translation you choose has been almost completely appropriated by the religious, so while i would have no problem talking to the religious that way, imo there is also a way to translate into secular language that might be more readily accepted by a local audience, as Paul tells us to do

In Christ I have a sense of origin and destiny.
In Christ I have peace with my entire past and hope for the future forever.
In Christ I have enjoyoment of fellowship with God, joy in my deepest being, and a loving family world-wide.
In Christ I have a meaning for my life in this universe and moment by moment confidence and joy I am on the winning side of things.

i totally understand, and fwiw i would not even suggest that you change, but see, you have not yet incorporated No son of man may die for another’s sins, and let’s admit that Esau sought to be on the “winning” side too, right? It is Jacob who inherits, but then must get to walking? How does Jacob (supplanter) “steal“ the inheritance, but Esau gets to stay on the land (“win”)?

and isn't the “winning side” for those “in the camp?” Christ was perceived as being on the losing side, right? and so while you say “In Christ,” many will say “Lord, Lord,” so i suggest that Mammon might actually be involved there, or let me say i would at least find some stress test for that “loving family of ppl who want to be on the winning side,” bc no offense but experience is making me hear “Your love’s like rhinestones, falling from the sky” or iow im pretty sure that they will fail you when you need them the most.

there's a locally famous corner in E Flint with a “church” on each corner, all four of them closed, since the money left…which i could dig up a picture, but hopefully the point is made. Now, might you be having a completely different experience? Sure. But i would wager that it is not the standard one if you are

ill stay on the losing side (as far as the world is concerned), tks. While i also do not blame you even a little for staying on the winning side, ok? And fwiw i am no less a hypocrite than anyone else i know, i am still constantly seeking to be on the winning side lol

Now if I drop all this and instead pick up your philosophy what does it offer me?

well, i wasnt aware that i had a philosophy, i guess? lol. Could you state it in a sentence, maybe? ty
and i would not expect someone who has a “hope for the future forever” (a great delusion, from the cult of sol belief in afterlife Apollos waters, Esau needed “red stew” or he would die, that imo the Bible does not support There is only One Immortal, No one has ever gone up to heaven, All go to the same place) to be able to even hear me, but i can say that Edom (Esau) is destroyed later for not allowing Israel to pass through

bc what it has to offer you is being chased from town to town, no set group of people for support, no idea where youll be tomorrow, etc, at least near as i can tell. Now i also wouldnt have it any other way, all i have to do now is say “boy, some _________ sure would be nice right about now” and it pretty much just appears, but i wont lie, it is a hard trade-off in many ways Oh daughters of Jerusalem, do not find love until you are ready

but also i understand that we are in life at the Decline/Decadence stage of our Empire, or iow our dollar is about done, and the (your) “winning side” is about to fall into chaos prolly, and im not worried, even a little; im 60 (at least), and dont have any savings to speak of, prolly gonna give away what i do have lol. to losers even

ps did you start a thread, that i am not finding?

 

[Invited_Christian]

it isnt that i am suspicious so much as that the language/translation you choose has been almost completely appropriated by the religious, so while i would have no problem talking to the religious that way, imo there is also a way to translate into secular language that might be more readily accepted by a local audience, as Paul tells us to do

I realize some will receive the words of the New Testament and some will not. Some are not ready.
Like "He who has an ear to hear let him hear." Those who have an ear to hear will hear.

i totally understand, and fwiw i would not even suggest that you change, but see, you have not yet incorporated No son of man may die for another’s sins, and let’s admit that Esau sought to be on the “winning” side too, right? It is Jacob who inherits, but then must get to walking? How does Jacob (supplanter) “steal“ the inheritance, but Esau gets to stay on the land (“win”)?

I like that with you there is something to work with seeing that you have much familiarity with the Bible. I don't want to respond too hastily for a peppering of various problems. Allow me to think for awhile on this and perhaps get back to you with my thoughts - the Jacob / Esau thing.

If we get into "wack-a-mole" mode like, "There's this problem here, and there is this other problem over there, and there's this additional problem right here" discussion for me can get cluttered. Let me see your other thoughts for now. Maybe you would say I do the same thing with my "proof texts".

and isn't the “winning side” for those “in the camp?” Christ was perceived as being on the losing side, right? and so while you say “In Christ,” many will say “Lord, Lord,” so i suggest that Mammon might actually be involved there, or let me say i would at least find some stress test for that “loving family of ppl who want to be on the winning side,” bc no offense but experience is making me hear “Your love’s like rhinestones, falling from the sky” or iow im pretty sure that they will fail you when you need them the most.

I'm not following you as well as I would like. There seems a bit of skepticism about my comment of the "winning side."
Being on the "winning side" with Christ does not mean no discipline along the way. If you read Hebrews 12:5-11 for example we are taught "For whom the Lord loves He disciplines, and He scourges every son whom He receives." (v.6) All of His sons are subjected to the loving discpline of their divine Father.
IMO it is often that Bible readers cave in with disappointment at almost ANY passage revealing the Father's disciplinary dealings with those for whom eternal redemption has been solved in the affirmative. They see a very BINARY situation of "Either you're a winner or you are a looser, period." There is indeed eventually the saved and the lost. However among the saved, God discplines His sons that they may partake of His holiness. And Hebrews in particular is a book about such discipline.
So all the saved end up as winners. All are not necessarily in that state at the same time. And the Father's discipline to perfect His children covers a wide range of remedies at His wise disposal. I would say that wide scope ranges from not too severe to very severe and all that is inbetween.
So if you go through the Scripture and point out "Oh Yea?? What about this guy? What about that guy?" you may include some guys for whom it records SOME measure of the saving Father's discipline is occuring along the path of their maturity.
Do I KNOW for certain that Esau I will not see in the New Jerusalem in eternity?
My name is Jack. Some things Jack has done, I'm sure God my Father also could say "Jack I hated."
It might mean that SOME aspect of Jack's doings are hated and cause some forfeiture of maximum blessing until Jack is transformed out of that error.
All this is to say, you'll find that I am not quickly "stumped" by some biblical expression of what might be the Father's disciplining of His sons AONG THE WAY to their inevitable maturity. Do check out for fun Hebrews 12:5-11. I spared you from me copying it for you here.

there's a locally famous corner in E Flint with a “church” on each corner, all four of them closed, since the money left…which i could dig up a picture, but hopefully the point is made. Now, might you be having a completely different experience? Sure. But i would wager that it is not the standard one if you are

Lol. You have lots of bones to pick. Maybe we can eventually focus on WHICH problem you want to deal with. Churches in the New Testament are according to cities. This is a big subject. Churches should be established not according to streets or persons or nationalities or races or particular practices or particular non-essential doctrinal positions, but according to localities. We can talk more asbout this.

You have a number of little "beefs" going on so far. And I think you have some back up "beefs" lined up still to go. A general disgruntled attitude with lots of "beefs" to fire off in scatter shot, is not easy to respond to adaquately. It is a good debating technique though.

Is this kind of your way of saying "Hi" to Christians like me ?

ill stay on the losing side (as far as the world is concerned), tks.

That's your perogative. I want to avail myself of the generously offered salvation.
I found that God is really on my side. It is just that He has to win me to His side to show me that He is on my side.

I'll take it. No one compares to Jesus Christ. No one imo can compete with Jesus Christ.
And you know - We all will put our trust in somebody eventually.

While i also do not blame you even a little for staying on the winning side, ok? And fwiw i am no less a hypocrite than anyone else i know, i am still constantly seeking to be on the winning side lol

I figured it out. FWIW means "for what its worth". All internet experssions I have not mastered even yet.

I am still seeking also. I still am stretching forward to the things which are before, like Paul in Phillipians 3:12-15a -

Not that I have already obtained or am already perfected, but I pursue, if even I may lay hold of that for which I also have been laid hold of by Christ Jesus.

Brothers, I do not account of myself to have laid hold; but one thing I do: Forgetting the things which are behind and stretching forward to the things which are before,
I pursue toward the goal for the prize to which God in Christ Jesus has called me upward.
Let us therefore, as many as are full-grown, have this mind;
Like Paul, I am not self satisfied. Like him, I too exercise to forget the things which are behind and keep reaching forward for the experience of Christ yet before me. Notice that he also added that this should be the mature attitude of a God seeking person.
"Let us therefore, as many as are full-grown, have this mind"
Saying I desire to be on the winning side is not saying I am ALREADY perfected or have nothing else to learn of God.

well, i wasnt aware that i had a philosophy, i guess? lol. Could you state it in a sentence, maybe? ty
and i would not expect someone who has a “hope for the future forever” (a great delusion, from the cult of sol belief in afterlife Apollos waters, Esau needed “red stew” or he would die, that imo the Bible does not support There is only One Immortal, No one has ever gone up to heaven, All go to the same place) to be able to even hear me, but i can say that Edom (Esau) is destroyed later for not allowing Israel to pass through

As of right now perhaps I would say your philsophy is kind of like a man who sits down at a turkey dinner but mostly is hunting for bones to choke on.

Okay, this is an agnostic's Forum. I surely should expect some posts like this. A little REMINDER that I am at a agnostics forum is cool.
Now, your're philosophy? Kind of "Not so fast Jesus lover. I have this, that, and this and that problem. I can keep you more than busy as I hunt for weaknesses in your affirmations of Bible words."

Okay. Before we go deeper into the gold mine of God's promises, what do you present here that's better? You don'ty mind taking a turn on the defensive, do you?

bc what it has to offer you is being chased from town to town, no set group of people for support, no idea where youll be tomorrow, etc, at least near as i can tell.

I've done a "Lone Ranger" thing too.
I've done some of the "Church of Me, Myself, and I" for awhile.
I've tasted a isolated inividuality in which no one can come up to my standard.

I would just say, that it is effective to gather with one or two more people in the soveriegnty of your own home.
And there in love set aside a time where you two or three put aside other matters to seek God. Reading, praying, studying, maybe a song. Maybe some opening up in confession with a few there that you have learned to TRUST.

So called "cell groups" have done much for some congregations.
We call them "small group gatherings" where detailed fellowship among a few who trust each other is very effective.
An important key is not get side tracked into talking about other things which have nothing to do with Christ which you may have interest in. This is a limited and dedicated time. This time in your home, in which you have full sovereignty, is FOCUSED on seeking God together. Then you can trade homes and circulate the little gathering between you two or three.

Getting sidetracked into talking lots of politics or sports or movies or other stuff which is removed from your controled focus for THIS gathering, you watch out for. Reading together the pure word of God in turns, is good. You know Christ said any two or three gathered together into His name will have His presence. This is a step upward imo from fierce isolation. Here you can love one another and bear one another's burdens in prayer. And it is effective if you honor Christ as the Head, the Lord, the Friend and Great Phsysician He is.

It doesn't have to be every week. Twice a month is good too. Once a month is good to start. But I encourate FOCUS on God and His word for this special little slice of dedicated time.

Now i also wouldnt have it any other way, all i have to do now is say “boy, some _________ sure would be nice right about now” and it pretty much just appears, but i wont lie, it is a hard trade-off in many ways Oh daughters of Jerusalem, do not find love until you are ready

but also i understand that we are in life at the Decline/Decadence stage of our Empire, or iow our dollar is about done, and the (your) “winning side” is about to fall into chaos prolly, and im not worried, even a little; im 60 (at least), and dont have any savings to speak of, prolly gonna give away what i do have lol. to losers even

ps did you start a thread, that i am not finding?

I don't think I started any new thread yet.
There is something about me saying "on the winning side" which seems to have gotten your goad. I am not sure why.

Does Paul's word about being "more than conquer" raise red flags with you as well?

What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? Indeed, He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not also with Him freely give us all things? (Rom. 8:31,32)

Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation or anguish or persecution or famine or nakedness or peril or sword?

As it is written, “For Your sake we are being put to death all day long; we have been accounted as sheep for slaughter.”
But in all these things we more than conquer through Him who loved us. (vs. 35-37)

Don't say "I am defeated and accept it and boast in it." Not as a Christian, you need cave in like this!
What I do is begin by acknowleging that the only true Victor is the Lord Jesus. Being grounded in that truth more than half the battle is already won. Before we were born He knew we were not going to make it. So He has made provision already.

"The problem is not that we do not have enough Christ. It is that we have too many things other than Christ." - Watchman Nee

 

[bbyrd009]

I realize some will receive the words of the New Testament and some will not. Some are not ready.
Like "He who has an ear to hear let him hear." Those who have an ear to hear will hear.

well hopefully the point is made that one might get so wrapped up in their culture that they make themselves inaccessible

but for now i would contemplate that you are dust, and to dust you will return, just like the Bible says, and any atheist would also agree with
(insert image of cells here, and good luck with that!)
www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fpost.healthline.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2020%2F08%2Fcells_with_nucleus-732x549-thumbnail.jpg&tbnid=RI4fIZHmP5701M&vet=12ahUKEwiAk8640d7-AhXqJN4AHfClAWcQMygJegUIARD-AQ..i&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.healthline.com%2Fhealth%2Fnumber-of-cells-in-body&docid=G63oXsOJj1W-LM&w=732&h=549&q=cells&ved=2ahUKEwiAk8640d7-AhXqJN4AHfClAWcQMygJegUIARD-AQ

(the “dust of the earth”)

I like that with you there is something to work with seeing that you have much familiarity with the Bible. I don't want to respond too hastily for a peppering of various problems. Allow me to think for awhile on this and perhaps get back to you with my thoughts - the Jacob / Esau thing.

ok
Esau felt that he needed “red stew” or he would die, right
and God “had hated” Esau

If we get into "wack-a-mole" mode like, "There's this problem here, and there is this other problem over there, and there's this additional problem right here" discussion for me can get cluttered. Let me see your other thoughts for now. Maybe you would say I do the same thing with my "proof texts".

I'm not following you as well as I would like. There seems a bit of skepticism about my comment of the "winning side."
Being on the "winning side" with Christ does not mean no discipline along the way. If you read Hebrews 12:5-11 for example we are taught "For whom the Lord loves He disciplines, and He scourges every son whom He receives." (v.6) All of His sons are subjected to the loving discpline of their divine Father.
IMO it is often that Bible readers cave in with disappointment at almost ANY passage revealing the Father's disciplinary dealings with those for whom eternal redemption has been solved in the affirmative. They see a very BINARY situation of "Either you're a winner or you are a looser, period." There is indeed eventually the saved and the lost. However among the saved, God discplines His sons that they may partake of His holiness. And Hebrews in particular is a book about such discipline.
So all the saved end up as winners. All are not necessarily in that state at the same time. And the Father's discipline to perfect His children covers a wide range of remedies at His wise disposal. I would say that wide scope ranges from not too severe to very severe and all that is inbetween.
So if you go through the Scripture and point out "Oh Yea?? What about this guy? What about that guy?" you may include some guys for whom it records SOME measure of the saving Father's discipline is occuring along the path of their maturity.
Do I KNOW for certain that Esau I will not see in the New Jerusalem in eternity?
My name is Jack. Some things Jack has done, I'm sure God my Father also could say "Jack I hated."

i would say that since Esau is marked out as doing one thing, eating “red stew,” it would be rather hard to direct God’s hate toward anything else, but i also understand the reluctance of most believers to contemplate “No one may die for another’s sins“

It might mean that SOME aspect of Jack's doings are hated and cause some forfeiture of maximum blessing until Jack is transformed out of that error.
All this is to say, you'll find that I am not quickly "stumped" by some biblical expression of what might be the Father's disciplining of His sons AONG THE WAY to their inevitable maturity. Do check out for fun Hebrews 12:5-11. I spared you from me copying it for you here.

Lol. You have lots of bones to pick. Maybe we can eventually focus on WHICH problem you want to deal with. Churches in the New Testament are according to cities. This is a big subject. Churches should be established not according to streets or persons or nationalities or races or particular practices or particular non-essential doctrinal positions, but according to localities. We can talk more asbout this.

milk and meat dont mix wadr, and as long as you are on meat and i am on milk, we are not going to agree much, prolly

You have a number of little "beefs" going on so far. And I think you have some back up "beefs" lined up still to go. A general disgruntled attitude with lots of "beefs" to fire off in scatter shot, is not easy to respond to adaquately. It is a good debating technique though.

Is this kind of your way of saying "Hi" to Christians like me ?

That's your perogative. I want to avail myself of the generously offered salvation.
I found that God is really on my side. It is just that He has to win me to His side to show me that He is on my side.

I'll take it. No one compares to Jesus Christ. No one imo can compete with Jesus Christ.
And you know - We all will put our trust in somebody eventually.

I figured it out. FWIW means "for what its worth". All internet experssions I have not mastered even yet.

I am still seeking also. I still am stretching forward to the things which are before, like Paul in Phillipians 3:12-15a -

Not that I have already obtained or am already perfected, but I pursue, if even I may lay hold of that for which I also have been laid hold of by Christ Jesus.

Brothers, I do not account of myself to have laid hold; but one thing I do: Forgetting the things which are behind and stretching forward to the things which are before,
I pursue toward the goal for the prize to which God in Christ Jesus has called me upward.
Let us therefore, as many as are full-grown, have this mind;
Like Paul, I am not self satisfied. Like him, I too exercise to forget the things which are behind and keep reaching forward for the experience of Christ yet before me. Notice that he also added that this should be the mature attitude of a God seeking person.
"Let us therefore, as many as are full-grown, have this mind"
Saying I desire to be on the winning side is not saying I am ALREADY perfected or have nothing else to learn of God.

hey, imo it is only natural to want to be on the “winning” side, which is why the Hebrews chose themselves a king to fight their battles in 1Sam8 against God’s advice, and ultimately how everyone else becomes “other,” imo. If there’s a winner, there has to be a loser too, right

As of right now perhaps I would say your philsophy is kind of like a man who sits down at a turkey dinner but mostly is hunting for bones to choke on.

Okay, this is an agnostic's Forum. I surely should expect some posts like this. A little REMINDER that I am at a agnostics forum is cool.
Now, your're philosophy? Kind of "Not so fast Jesus lover. I have this, that, and this and that problem. I can keep you more than busy as I hunt for weaknesses in your affirmations of Bible words."

well fwiw i suggest that there is a whole Bible full of words that your cult of sol handlers would rather you were not exposed to, that you might just as easily affirm, if and when you are ready.

bc right now your philosophy is basically “death, more abundantly,” is it not? Your “eternal” life is going to begin after you have died, right? Are you aware that what is translated as “eternal” to you comes from “aion; a space of time, an age” rather than aidios (forever)? Every, single, time?

Okay. Before we go deeper into the gold mine of God's promises, what do you present here that's better? You don'ty mind taking a turn on the defensive, do you?

I've done a "Lone Ranger" thing too.
I've done some of the "Church of Me, Myself, and I" for awhile.
I've tasted a isolated inividuality in which no one can come up to my standard.

I would just say, that it is effective to gather with one or two more people in the soveriegnty of your own home.
And there in love set aside a time where you two or three put aside other matters to seek God. Reading, praying, studying, maybe a song. Maybe some opening up in confession with a few there that you have learned to TRUST.

So called "cell groups" have done much for some congregations.
We call them "small group gatherings" where detailed fellowship among a few who trust each other is very effective.
An important key is not get side tracked into talking about other things which have nothing to do with Christ which you may have interest in. This is a limited and dedicated time. This time in your home, in which you have full sovereignty, is FOCUSED on seeking God together. Then you can trade homes and circulate the little gathering between you two or three.

i was doing all that about forty years ago, nothing wring with it for the time, sure

Getting sidetracked into talking lots of politics or sports or movies or other stuff which is removed from your controled focus for THIS gathering, you watch out for. Reading together the pure word of God in turns, is good. You know Christ said any two or three gathered together into His name will have His presence. This is a step upward imo from fierce isolation. Here you can love one another and bear one another's burdens in prayer. And it is effective if you honor Christ as the Head, the Lord, the Friend and Great Phsysician He is.

It doesn't have to be every week. Twice a month is good too. Once a month is good to start. But I encourate FOCUS on God and His word for this special little slice of dedicated time.

I don't think I started any new thread yet.
There is something about me saying "on the winning side" which seems to have gotten your goad. I am not sure why.

bc to me that is “in the world,” or Christian Nationalism, or Capitalism, and i have just come to see that winners are at the expense of losers, and i dont want to be that guy anymore

Does Paul's word about being "more than conquer" raise red flags with you as well?

What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? Indeed, He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not also with Him freely give us all things? (Rom. 8:31,32)

Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation or anguish or persecution or famine or nakedness or peril or sword?

As it is written, “For Your sake we are being put to death all day long; we have been accounted as sheep for slaughter.”
But in all these things we more than conquer through Him who loved us. (vs. 35-37)

so then no, Paul‘s words here do not raise any red flags for me, being as how he is being chased out of one town and having to run to another, avoiding being put to death all day long lol. Wadr you are the one raising red flags if anything, having extracted “we more than conquer” from all that?

Yielding to “win” is a difficult concept though, and hardly acknowledged by the cult of sol, for obvious reasons i guess;
when i am weak, then i am strong is mostly given lip service unfortunately

Don't say "I am defeated and accept it and boast in it." Not as a Christian, you need cave in like this!

actually yes, you do, and there is even a verse that says exactly that
But he answered me, “My grace is always more than enough for you, and my power finds its full expression through your weakness.”
not the one i was looking for, but meh
there is a victory in defeat, it is just hard to grasp at first i guess
or ever lol

What I do is begin by acknowleging that the only true Victor is the Lord Jesus. Being grounded in that truth more than half the battle is already won. Before we were born He knew we were not going to make it. So He has made provision already.

"The problem is not that we do not have enough Christ. It is that we have too many things other than Christ." - Watchman Nee

Christ died for our sins, which i understand as more a spiritual operation…and i even vaguely recall the day that i killed Immanuel, all by myself, the day i first realized i could lie or whatever to get my way (be a “winner”)

you might note that “Jesus died for our sins” cannot be Quoted

 

[bbyrd009]

I realize some will receive the words of the New Testament and some will not. Some are not ready.
Like "He who has an ear to hear let him hear." Those who have an ear to hear will hear.

I like that with you there is something to work with seeing that you have much familiarity with the Bible. I don't want to respond too hastily for a peppering of various problems. Allow me to think for awhile on this and perhaps get back to you with my thoughts - the Jacob / Esau thing.

If we get into "wack-a-mole" mode like, "There's this problem here, and there is this other problem over there, and there's this additional problem right here" discussion for me can get cluttered. Let me see your other thoughts for now. Maybe you would say I do the same thing with my "proof texts".

I'm not following you as well as I would like. There seems a bit of skepticism about my comment of the "winning side."
Being on the "winning side" with Christ does not mean no discipline along the way. If you read Hebrews 12:5-11 for example we are taught "For whom the Lord loves He disciplines, and He scourges every son whom He receives." (v.6) All of His sons are subjected to the loving discpline of their divine Father.
IMO it is often that Bible readers cave in with disappointment at almost ANY passage revealing the Father's disciplinary dealings with those for whom eternal redemption has been solved in the affirmative. They see a very BINARY situation of "Either you're a winner or you are a looser, period." There is indeed eventually the saved and the lost. However among the saved, God discplines His sons that they may partake of His holiness. And Hebrews in particular is a book about such discipline.
So all the saved end up as winners. All are not necessarily in that state at the same time. And the Father's discipline to perfect His children covers a wide range of remedies at His wise disposal. I would say that wide scope ranges from not too severe to very severe and all that is inbetween.
So if you go through the Scripture and point out "Oh Yea?? What about this guy? What about that guy?" you may include some guys for whom it records SOME measure of the saving Father's discipline is occuring along the path of their maturity.
Do I KNOW for certain that Esau I will not see in the New Jerusalem in eternity?
My name is Jack. Some things Jack has done, I'm sure God my Father also could say "Jack I hated."
It might mean that SOME aspect of Jack's doings are hated and cause some forfeiture of maximum blessing until Jack is transformed out of that error.
All this is to say, you'll find that I am not quickly "stumped" by some biblical expression of what might be the Father's disciplining of His sons AONG THE WAY to their inevitable maturity. Do check out for fun Hebrews 12:5-11. I spared you from me copying it for you here.

Lol. You have lots of bones to pick. Maybe we can eventually focus on WHICH problem you want to deal with. Churches in the New Testament are according to cities. This is a big subject. Churches should be established not according to streets or persons or nationalities or races or particular practices or particular non-essential doctrinal positions, but according to localities. We can talk more asbout this.

You have a number of little "beefs" going on so far. And I think you have some back up "beefs" lined up still to go. A general disgruntled attitude with lots of "beefs" to fire off in scatter shot, is not easy to respond to adaquately. It is a good debating technique though.

Is this kind of your way of saying "Hi" to Christians like me ?

ah well wadr i avoid “Christians” like the plague now, the “Death, More Abundantly” crowd? since i learned where Gehenna is, where “hel” came from, etc.

They were first called Christians in Antioch seems innocuous enough on its face, right, until the definition of “Christians” is understood, and what “Antioch” signifies is incorporated. “Christians“ at the time meant (something like) “Zionists” does now, one who believed in a literal restoration of the Davidic throne. And Antioch was known as a Roman stronghold, very loyal to the empire

That's your perogative. I want to avail myself of the generously offered salvation.

salvation, from what?
Can you Quote that one, single, time?
no, you cannot, see

I found that God is really on my side. It is just that He has to win me to His side to show me that He is on my side.

I'll take it. No one compares to Jesus Christ. No one imo can compete with Jesus Christ.
And you know - We all will put our trust in somebody eventually.

I figured it out. FWIW means "for what its worth". All internet experssions I have not mastered even yet.

I am still seeking also. I still am stretching forward to the things which are before, like Paul in Phillipians 3:12-15a -

Not that I have already obtained or am already perfected, but I pursue, if even I may lay hold of that for which I also have been laid hold of by Christ Jesus.

Brothers, I do not account of myself to have laid hold; but one thing I do: Forgetting the things which are behind and stretching forward to the things which are before,
I pursue toward the goal for the prize to which God in Christ Jesus has called me upward.
Let us therefore, as many as are full-grown, have this mind;
Like Paul, I am not self satisfied. Like him, I too exercise to forget the things which are behind and keep reaching forward for the experience of Christ yet before me. Notice that he also added that this should be the mature attitude of a God seeking person.
"Let us therefore, as many as are full-grown, have this mind"
Saying I desire to be on the winning side is not saying I am ALREADY perfected or have nothing else to learn of God.

As of right now perhaps I would say your philsophy is kind of like a man who sits down at a turkey dinner but mostly is hunting for bones to choke on.

Okay, this is an agnostic's Forum. I surely should expect some posts like this. A little REMINDER that I am at a agnostics forum is cool.
Now, your're philosophy? Kind of "Not so fast Jesus lover. I have this, that, and this and that problem. I can keep you more than busy as I hunt for weaknesses in your affirmations of Bible words."

Okay. Before we go deeper into the gold mine of God's promises, what do you present here that's better?

better than immortality with God forever and ever?
i mean, how am i supposed to compete with that lol

i would say that there are keys to the kingdom, and life, more abundantly is possible
but we have been sold a product, by a corporation, and the reality just isnt going to have the Hollywood glitz, ok

so, while my interpretations are usually much more mundane, they are also more practical, but unfortunately not nearly as miraculous as Jesus literally coming in the clouds, once the (self explanatory) allegory for “clouds” is considered

You don'ty mind taking a turn on the defensive, do you?

I've done a "Lone Ranger" thing too.
I've done some of the "Church of Me, Myself, and I" for awhile.
I've tasted a isolated inividuality in which no one can come up to my standard.

I would just say, that it is effective to gather with one or two more people in the soveriegnty of your own home.
And there in love set aside a time where you two or three put aside other matters to seek God. Reading, praying, studying, maybe a song. Maybe some opening up in confession with a few there that you have learned to TRUST.

So called "cell groups" have done much for some congregations.
We call them "small group gatherings" where detailed fellowship among a few who trust each other is very effective.
An important key is not get side tracked into talking about other things which have nothing to do with Christ which you may have interest in. This is a limited and dedicated time. This time in your home, in which you have full sovereignty, is FOCUSED on seeking God together. Then you can trade homes and circulate the little gathering between you two or three.

Getting sidetracked into talking lots of politics or sports or movies or other stuff which is removed from your controled focus for THIS gathering, you watch out for. Reading together the pure word of God in turns, is good. You know Christ said any two or three gathered together into His name will have His presence. This is a step upward imo from fierce isolation. Here you can love one another and bear one another's burdens in prayer. And it is effective if you honor Christ as the Head, the Lord, the Friend and Great Phsysician He is.

It doesn't have to be every week. Twice a month is good too. Once a month is good to start. But I encourate FOCUS on God and His word for this special little slice of dedicated time.

I don't think I started any new thread yet.
There is something about me saying "on the winning side" which seems to have gotten your goad. I am not sure why.

Does Paul's word about being "more than conquer" raise red flags with you as well?

What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? Indeed, He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not also with Him freely give us all things? (Rom. 8:31,32)

Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation or anguish or persecution or famine or nakedness or peril or sword?

As it is written, “For Your sake we are being put to death all day long; we have been accounted as sheep for slaughter.”
But in all these things we more than conquer through Him who loved us. (vs. 35-37)

Don't say "I am defeated and accept it and boast in it." Not as a Christian, you need cave in like this!
What I do is begin by acknowleging that the only true Victor is the Lord Jesus. Being grounded in that truth more than half the battle is already won. Before we were born He knew we were not going to make it. So He has made provision already.

"The problem is not that we do not have enough Christ. It is that we have too many things other than Christ." - Watchman Nee

sorry for the double post, xenforo and ipad have never gotten along very well, page reloaded several times, etc