What's your favorite topic on religion or theism to debate on?

[Invited_Christian]

ah well wadr i avoid “Christians” like the plague now, the “Death, More Abundantly” crowd? since i learned where Gehenna is, where “hel” came from, etc.

Isn't hell enough to be so unsure of anything? What a torment to remain with no assurance of purpose or destiny.

salvation, from what?
Can you Quote that one, single, time?
no, you cannot, see

What kind of wild inquiry and second guessing is that?
Salvation from the futile emptiness of agnosticism for one.

better than immortality with God forever and ever?
i mean, how am i supposed to compete with that lol

You can't.
Savation is not only with God for eternity but filled with God for eternity.
So being conformed to the image of His Son is something that never even entered into most people's hearts to even ask.

i would say that there are keys to the kingdom, and life, more abundantly is possible
but we have been sold a product, by a corporation, and the reality just isnt going to have the Hollywood glitz, ok

I don't go to Hollywood to get my beliefs on God.

so, while my interpretations are usually much more mundane, they are also more practical, but unfortunately not nearly as miraculous as Jesus literally coming in the clouds, once the (self explanatory) allegory for “clouds” is considered

I have no problem with Jesus coming in a way to demonstrate He is God over all nature.
He the angels said to the eyewitnesses of His physical ascension that AS they saw Him physically ascend they would see Him physically return in the same way they saw Him going up into heaven.

And when He had said these things, while they were looking on, He was lifted up, and a cloud took Him away from their sight.
And while they were looking intently into heaven as He went, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them,
Who also said, Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you beheld Him going into heaven. (Acts 1:9-11)

Besides, actual artifacts can simultaneously take on symbolic meaning. The two concepts are not mutually exclusive.

 

[bbyrd009]

Isn't hell enough to be so unsure of anything? What a torment to remain with no assurance of purpose or destiny.

well ic, Gehenna is right here on earth, right? What if “hel” is just a bad translation, by Norse/Angle scribes, who maybe even meant to be completely sincere, but they just had no better term to translate into? Bc idk ok, but it seems like hel might be just a useful fiction for ppl who want to go up to heaven after they have died? No one has ever gone up to heaven but He Who came down from it, the son of man, All go to the same place, You came from dust, and to dust you will return, etc

What kind of wild inquiry and second guessing is that?
Salvation from the futile emptiness of agnosticism for one.

i only meant to ask what you believed that you were being “saved” from, and whether you could Quote that, ic. You might contemplate why you cannot Quote “from the fires of eternal hell” one single time, and see that the question is really a central one, but i also get that the power of public opinion is a strong one, and this may not interest you right now.

not sure why you might deem agnosticism “futile emptiness” so ill put it down to something like “fear of the unknown,” and resist pointing out how futile and empty a belief in an ”afterlife” that you cannot Quote (either) would be; but just so you know, i believe in God, ok. Maybe not the Olde Whyte Guy with the beard and the robe, but regardless

You can't.
Savation is not only with God for eternity but filled with God for eternity.
.

but wadr (with all due respect) you have not addressed where your understanding of “eternity” came from, nor why it does not come from aidios, but rather aion. So again we have the great delusion here between us, in your gnostic statement

“Salvation is not only with God for eternity but filled with God for eternity”

when the Bible clearly states otherwise, as i have already recently Quoted

So being conformed to the image of His Son is something that never even entered into most people's hearts to even ask

to even ask? sorry, im not quite following here, but imo this is a completely diff subject anyway, something one does here on erets

I don't go to Hollywood to get my beliefs on God.

i meant that as allegory, but my point was that you surely got many or most of your beliefs on God from people who seemed sincere, that you were giving money to, ic, same as me and most every other believer, and its only later that we come to understand how the money changes the transaction, and makes it the sale of a product, and that the truth we might not have been so eager to pay for.

but see, No son of man may die for another’s sin…, No one has ever gone up to heaven…, All go to the same place, and you and your sons will be here with me (Samuel), you have to find these all by yourself, see, bc you never will hear them in a “church” bro. Esau and his needing red stew they stay far away from, see

I have no problem with Jesus coming in a way to demonstrate He is God over all nature.
He the angels said to the eyewitnesses of His physical ascension that AS they saw Him physically ascend they would see Him physically return in the same way they saw Him going up into heaven.

then wadr that would make standing there, looking up into the sky a perfectly reasonable thing to do, wouldnt it? You might note that you inserted “physically” all by yourself there too, fwiw; there is no phusis in the passage, see.

You might contemplate the possibility that the passage is constructed the way it is the suggest a spiritual ascension--or you might see that No one has ever gone up to heaven but He Who came down from it, the son of man is now maybe more true, since i have no probs with a literal ascension if you like, but either way seems like there is going to be an adjustment there? or not

but again, you have added “return” wadr, hupo strepho is not in there bro; there is no “Jesus hupo strepho” anywhere in the Bible! Weird, huh?

And when He had said these things, while they were looking on, He was lifted up, and a cloud took Him away from their sight.
And while they were looking intently into heaven as He went, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them,
Who also said, Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you beheld Him going into heaven. (Acts 1:9-11)

Besides, actual artifacts can simultaneously take on symbolic meaning. The two concepts are not mutually exclusive.

i agree, and it is a small thing to me, even if a misunderstanding, that i would even grant is encouraged, for a specific reason, that being ppls overwhelming desire to become immortal after they have died Apollos waters
perhaps

Jesus will indeed come in the same way He was taken, imo…but that does not mean that He will literally, physically “return,” see, at least not necessarily. Return to Me and I will return to you

fwiw i understand that this is maybe frustrating for you, and i should prolly say that as far as i am concerned, you are a good hearted, earnest person who seems to be seeking wisdom, and i dont expect you or anyone to believe as i do ok. For all i know you are a son of man, and might spend ”eternity” in “heaven,” but i just hate to see ppl consumed with that and forgetting that Christ came that we might have LIFE, more abundantly, The kingdom of heaven is WITHIN

 

[bbyrd009]

i come from a family of believers, cult of sol, and to be fair they initially levelled the same charges at me; no assurance of purpose or destiny, etc, but i cant tell you how freeing it is to not know, and not be worried in the least where i will be tomorrow (and im 61). Especially since any other stance just comes across as wishful thinking/self deception, not supported anywhere in the Bible, near as i can tell

 

[Invited_Christian]

well ic, Gehenna is right here on earth, right?

It was the city dump in Jerusalem. And Jesus used it as an anology of eternal punishment.
Hell is just Hades. Hades and Hell are also called Sheol in the OT. Count it as the realm of the dead - period.

The vanacular usage developed into referring to all punishment after death by God as taking place in Hell.
Actually, Hell is just Hades - the realm where the soul separated from the material body goes upon death.
And this would refer to the place of ALL deceased and awaiting resurrection whether the believing saved or unbelievers.

What if “hel” is just a bad translation, by Norse/Angle scribes, who maybe even meant to be completely sincere, but they just had no better term to translate into? Bc idk ok, but it seems like hel might be just a useful fiction for ppl who want to go up to heaven after they have died? No one has ever gone up to heaven but He Who came down from it, the son of man, All go to the same place, You came from dust, and to dust you will return, etc

I understand what you are saying and agree. The "going to heaven" upon death louded by many is unbiblical.
I learned these thingssimply be reading carefully the Scriptures. I always ask "Now what does it actually SAY?"

i only meant to ask what you believed that you were being “saved” from, and whether you could Quote that, ic.

I am saved. I am being saved. And I will be saved.
As to the past, I WAS saved from the curse of the law against I was hopelessly guilty of breaking and due retribution from God.
As to the present process, I am BEING saved through the sanctification, through transformation of my soul to be Christ like.
As to my future, I WILL BE saved by the rapture and transfiguration of my body into a glorious one like Christ's.

So the New Testament "salvation" is rather involved encompassing first my spirit then my soul and then my body.
Working its way from the innermost to the outermost I am being saved in my entire tripartite being - spirit and soul and body.

First Thess. 5:23,24 says -
And the God of peace Himself sanctify you wholly, and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is He who calls you, who also will do it.
This is a good verse showing the varied aspects of us being SAVED.
Romans 5:8-10

But God commends His own love to us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Much more then, having now been justified in His blood, we will be saved through Him from the wrath.
For if we, being enemies, were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more we will be saved in His life, having been reconciled,

Notice:
1.) Justified in His blood - that is saved from appearing before the Righteous God unjustified.
2.) Saved through Him from the wrath - that is saved from His righteous indignation against the sinner. And that "much more."
3.) Were repconciled to God - that is saved from being God's enemies. Can you imagine being an enemy of God ??
4.) Much more will be saved in His life - that is having been reconciled much more saved by His imparted, indwelling divine life dispensed into our being.

You might contemplate why you cannot Quote “from the fires of eternal hell” one single time, and see that the question is really a central one, but i also get that the power of public opinion is a strong one, and this may not interest you right now.

You are trying to shoe horn me into your little box of salvation only being "from the fires of hell."
We need to be saved from everything other than God Himself which replaces God in our lives.

But if you must have a quotation about the aspect of salvation involving rescue from this punishment of fire it is not hard to find.
Here is a teaching from the mouth of Jesus specifically telling us WHO we should fear for the reason that He can reach us BEYOND death and still punish if He has to.

Luke 12:4,5 -
And I say to you My friends, Do not fear those who kill the body and afterward have nothing more that they can do.
But I will show you whom you should fear: fear Him who, after killing, has authority to cast into Gehenna; yes, I tell you, fear this One.
1.) This is a teaching on the reason God should be feared if you are a sinner - "I will show you whom you should fear."
2.) The reason for this alarm is that unlike human beings, God can go beyond simply "killing" ie. physical death.
3.) Since Gehenna (the city dump) is used to symbolize something beyond killing, He must mean a punishment beyond mere physical killing.
4.) This one is to be feared to a greater degree than mere humans who can only kill. - "yes, I tell you, fear this One."

5.) Lastly, the next verse assures the believer that he has no reason to fear if His trust is in the loving Father (vs. 6,7)

Are not five sparrows sold for two assaria? And not one of them is forgotten before God. But even the hairs of your head have all been numbered. Do not be afraid; you are of more value than many sparrows.

We do not need to know the science of the matter. It is communicated that the unpleasantness of this punishment beyond death by a word picture of the fires of the city dump. It would be foolish to go there with curiosity to find out whether it is real fire or something else. It is to be AVOIDED by being saved by Christ.
And other passages clearly convey fire of some sort awaits the damned.
Then He will say also to those on the left, Go away from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. (Matt. 25:31) . . . And these shall go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. (v.46)

You can see that "eternal fire" (v.31) = "eternal punishment" (v.46)
Furnace of fire is used in Matt. 13:41,42
The Son of Man will send His angels, and they will collect out of His kingdom all the stumbling blocks and those who practice lawlessness, And will cast them into the furnace of fire. In that place there will be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.

I don't have to like it. I only have to believe it.

not sure why you might deem agnosticism “futile emptiness” so ill put it down to something like “fear of the unknown,” and resist pointing out how futile and empty a belief in an ”afterlife” that you cannot Quote (either) would be; but just so you know, i believe in God, ok. Maybe not the Olde Whyte Guy with the beard and the robe, but regardless

I am reflecting on my own period of life when I was agnostic.
There was no rest for my soul.
As for the lampoon of "Olde Whyte Guy" - I got my faith from careful reading of the Scriptures. The artwork of imagination was not my primary souce.

but wadr (with all due respect) you have not addressed where your understanding of “eternity” came from, nor why it does not come from aidios, but rather aion. So again we have the great delusion here between us, in your gnostic statement

This is a little simplier imo. If ANYTHING exists at all, then Something must have existed from eternity.
If everything borrows its existence from a previous thing there must be a terminal point where the origin of it all is eternally existent. This is God.
You know the Bible covers His interaction in time from Adam through the centries until the end of history.
Adam comes and goes -God is still there.
Abraham, Isaac, Jacob come and go - God is still there.
Israel comes - God is still there. He doesn't die. Nothings says He was created.
The first verse in the Bible carries the meaning that HE lived and then brought all creation into being.
"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" (Gen. 1:1)

He is the God who " who gives life to the dead and calls the things not being as being." (Rom. 4:17)
"Before the mountains were brought forth, / And before You gave birth to the earth and the world, / Indeed from eternity to eternity, You are God." (Psa. 90:2)
The resurrection of Christ, as He predicted, seals that He must be indestructible.
His ability to (if He deems appropriate) to inform us of prophecy and the future evidence His transcendents over all time.

Among all the creatures of earth, God has put eternity into man's heart. Man has a sense within him that grops for and reaches for the eternal. So said Solomon.

He has made everything beautiful in its own time; also He has put eternity in their heart, yet so that man does not find out what God has done from the beginning to the end. (Ecc. 3:11)
God inhabits eternity. - For thus says the high and exalted One, / Who inhabits eternity, whose name is Holy: / I will dwell in the high and holy place, / And with the contrite and lowly of spirit, / To revive the spirit of the lowly / And to revive the heart of the contrite. (Isaiah. 57:15)
You see? God inhabits eternity and longs to also dwell with man with a contrite and lowly spirit.
Why He wishes you eternal life is hard to fathom. But He does. And He will not grow bored with us.
He will conform us to His Son. And He is well pleased with His Son.

when the Bible clearly states otherwise, as i have already recently Quoted

The concept of eternity is biblical. Ages of the ages as an expression amounts to perpetuity - forever - never ending - everlasting.
Here we can see "eternal" verses the opposite "temporary."
Because we do not regard the things which are seen but the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporary, but the things which are not seen are eternal. (2 Cor. 4:18)
Here we also see the things "momentary" verses the things "eternal".
For our momentary lightness of affliction works out for us, more and more surpassingly, an eternal weight of glory, (v.17)

to even ask? sorry, im not quite following here, but imo this is a completely diff subject anyway, something one does here on erets

i meant that as allegory, but my point was that you surely got many or most of your beliefs on God from people who seemed sincere,

There is nothing wrong with being influenced by sincere people. I check everything with the word of God.
The final say is not anyone's sincerity but what I am told in the Bible.

that you were giving money to, ic, same as me and most every other believer, and its only later that we come to understand how the money changes the transaction, and makes it the sale of a product, and that the truth we might not have been so eager to pay for.

Covetouesness and greediness with anxiety can make one's life very unhappy.
God loves a cheerful giver.
And it is my experience that I can NEVER outgive God.
The principle I have learned and STILL learning is "Horde unto poverty and give unto blessing and abundance."
This has taken time to learn. And my Father is very patient and longsuffering and understanding.
There is no way, I could ever accuse my heavenly Father of not meeing my need. Perhaps not all my WANTS are not given.
But cheerful giving to the Lord's work is a sweet blessing which the Father more than re-compensates.
If you cannot give cheerfully, better to not give at all.

You might contemplate the possibility that the passage is constructed the way it is the suggest a spiritual ascension--or you might see that No one has ever gone up to heaven but He Who came down from it, the son of man is now maybe more true, since i have no probs with a literal ascension if you like, but either way seems like there is going to be an adjustment there? or not

What makes you think I miss the spiritual ascension meaning AS WELL as the supernatural going up in drammatic fashion?
We need all the ascending of Jesus as is available.
He ascended morally, spiritually, and He went up in their sight.
Why the need to make a false dichotomy of "either / or" ?

but again, you have added “return” wadr, hupo strepho is not in there bro; there is no “Jesus hupo strepho” anywhere in the Bible! Weird, huh?

You know Paul told the Christians that if Jesus is not raised from the dead, our faith is in vain and we are of all people most pitiful
The same applies to His universal and ultimate vindication of His physical return. It is the one hope of our calling.
Where is your faith man?

Philippian 3:20,21 -
For our commonwealth exists in the heavens, from which also we eagerly await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,
Who will transfigure the body of our humiliation to be conformed to the body of His glory, according to His operation by which He is able even to subject all things to Himself.
Titus 2:13 - Awaiting the blessed hope, even the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,

So we need time to be filled with His Spirit more and more, like the wise virgins going forth to meet the Bridgroom.

Jesus will indeed come in the same way He was taken, imo…but that does not mean that He will literally, physically “return,” see, at least not necessarily. Return to Me and I will return to you

Yes. He returns for His lovers.
In the meantime in Spirit He is with us until the consummation of the age.
He lives in me. And He is also coming for His lovers.
The second coming of Christ is the one inevitable of human history.
The total vindication of that Son of God is history's climax, consummation, and conclusion.
It is "Thy kingdm COME" not "Thy Kingdom GO."
It is a salvation not only of individuals but of the environment, the planet, the universe.
Romans 8: 19-23 -
For the anxious watching of the creation eagerly awaits the revelation of the sons of God.
For the creation was made subject to vanity, not of its own will, but because of Him who subjected it,
In hope that the creation itself will also be freed from the slavery of corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

For we know that the whole creation groans together and travails in pain together until now.
And not only so, but we ourselves also, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan in ourselves, eagerly awaiting sonship, the redemption of our body.

But according to His promise we are expecting new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells. (2 Pet. 3:13)
Rev. 21:1 - And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and the sea is no more.
Verse 5 - And He who sits on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And He said, Write, for these words are faithful and true.
See how exceedingly practical full salvation is?
He starts from the inside of our innermost being and works His way - out and out and out and even into the environment - a new heaven and new earth in which righteousness dwells.

fwiw i understand that this is maybe frustrating for you, and i should prolly say that as far as i am concerned, you are a good hearted, earnest person who seems to be seeking wisdom, and i dont expect you or anyone to believe as i do ok. For all i know you are a son of man, and might spend ”eternity” in “heaven,” but i just hate to see ppl consumed with that and forgetting that Christ came that we might have LIFE, more abundantly, The kingdom of heaven is WITHIN

As I spoke to a little - He works from the INSIDE of man OUT.
Here you are in part saying what I am saying.

" that Christ came that we might have LIFE, more abundantly, The kingdom of heaven is WITHIN"
Certainly God's purpose is to dispense Christ as life INTO man that man may LIVE out Christ. "Christ in you the hope of glory."
Actually that should read the kingsom of God is in your midst.

And when He was questioned by the Pharisees as to when the kingdom of God was coming, He answered them and said, The kingdom of God does not come with observation; Nor will they say, Behold, here it is! or, There! For behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you. (Luke 17:20,21)

 

[bbyrd009]

It was the city dump in Jerusalem. And Jesus used it as an anology of eternal punishment.
Hell is just Hades. Hades and Hell are also called Sheol in the OT. Count it as the realm of the dead - period.

The vanacular usage developed into referring to all punishment after death by God as taking place in Hell.
Actually, Hell is just Hades - the realm where the soul separated from the material body goes upon death.
And this would refer to the place of ALL deceased and awaiting resurrection whether the believing saved or unbelievers.

I understand what you are saying and agree. The "going to heaven" upon death louded by many is unbiblical.
I learned these thingssimply be reading carefully the Scriptures. I always ask "Now what does it actually SAY?"

I am saved. I am being saved. And I will be saved.
As to the past, I WAS saved from the curse of the law against I was hopelessly guilty of breaking and due retribution from God.
As to the present process, I am BEING saved through the sanctification, through transformation of my soul to be Christ like.
As to my future, I WILL BE saved by the rapture and transfiguration of my body into a glorious one like Christ's.

So the New Testament "salvation" is rather involved encompassing first my spirit then my soul and then my body.
Working its way from the innermost to the outermost I am being saved in my entire tripartite being - spirit and soul and body.

First Thess. 5:23,24 says -
And the God of peace Himself sanctify you wholly, and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is He who calls you, who also will do it.
This is a good verse showing the varied aspects of us being SAVED.
Romans 5:8-10

But God commends His own love to us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Much more then, having now been justified in His blood, we will be saved through Him from the wrath.
For if we, being enemies, were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more we will be saved in His life, having been reconciled,

Notice:
1.) Justified in His blood - that is saved from appearing before the Righteous God unjustified.
2.) Saved through Him from the wrath - that is saved from His righteous indignation against the sinner. And that "much more."
3.) Were repconciled to God - that is saved from being God's enemies. Can you imagine being an enemy of God ??
4.) Much more will be saved in His life - that is having been reconciled much more saved by His imparted, indwelling divine life dispensed into our being.

You are trying to shoe horn me into your little box of salvation only being "from the fires of hell."
We need to be saved from everything other than God Himself which replaces God in our lives.

But if you must have a quotation about the aspect of salvation involving rescue from this punishment of fire it is not hard to find.
Here is a teaching from the mouth of Jesus specifically telling us WHO we should fear for the reason that He can reach us BEYOND death and still punish if He has to.

Luke 12:4,5 -
And I say to you My friends, Do not fear those who kill the body and afterward have nothing more that they can do.
But I will show you whom you should fear: fear Him who, after killing, has authority to cast into Gehenna; yes, I tell you, fear this One.
1.) This is a teaching on the reason God should be feared if you are a sinner - "I will show you whom you should fear."
2.) The reason for this alarm is that unlike human beings, God can go beyond simply "killing" ie. physical death.
3.) Since Gehenna (the city dump) is used to symbolize something beyond killing, He must mean a punishment beyond mere physical killing.
4.) This one is to be feared to a greater degree than mere humans who can only kill. - "yes, I tell you, fear this One."

5.) Lastly, the next verse assures the believer that he has no reason to fear if His trust is in the loving Father (vs. 6,7)

Are not five sparrows sold for two assaria? And not one of them is forgotten before God. But even the hairs of your head have all been numbered. Do not be afraid; you are of more value than many sparrows.

We do not need to know the science of the matter. It is communicated that the unpleasantness of this punishment beyond death by a word picture of the fires of the city dump. It would be foolish to go there with curiosity to find out whether it is real fire or something else. It is to be AVOIDED by being saved by Christ.
And other passages clearly convey fire of some sort awaits the damned.
Then He will say also to those on the left, Go away from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. (Matt. 25:31) . . . And these shall go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. (v.46)

You can see that "eternal fire" (v.31) = "eternal punishment" (v.46)
Furnace of fire is used in Matt. 13:41,42
The Son of Man will send His angels, and they will collect out of His kingdom all the stumbling blocks and those who practice lawlessness, And will cast them into the furnace of fire. In that place there will be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.

I don't have to like it. I only have to believe it.

I am reflecting on my own period of life when I was agnostic.
There was no rest for my soul.
As for the lampoon of "Olde Whyte Guy" - I got my faith from careful reading of the Scriptures. The artwork of imagination was not my primary souce.

This is a little simplier imo. If ANYTHING exists at all, then Something must have existed from eternity.
If everything borrows its existence from a previous thing there must be a terminal point where the origin of it all is eternally existent. This is God.
You know the Bible covers His interaction in time from Adam through the centries until the end of history.
Adam comes and goes -God is still there.
Abraham, Isaac, Jacob come and go - God is still there.
Israel comes - God is still there. He doesn't die. Nothings says He was created.
The first verse in the Bible carries the meaning that HE lived and then brought all creation into being.
"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" (Gen. 1:1)

He is the God who " who gives life to the dead and calls the things not being as being." (Rom. 4:17)
"Before the mountains were brought forth, / And before You gave birth to the earth and the world, / Indeed from eternity to eternity, You are God." (Psa. 90:2)
The resurrection of Christ, as He predicted, seals that He must be indestructible.
His ability to (if He deems appropriate) to inform us of prophecy and the future evidence His transcendents over all time.

Among all the creatures of earth, God has put eternity into man's heart. Man has a sense within him that grops for and reaches for the eternal. So said Solomon.

He has made everything beautiful in its own time; also He has put eternity in their heart, yet so that man does not find out what God has done from the beginning to the end. (Ecc. 3:11)
God inhabits eternity. - For thus says the high and exalted One, / Who inhabits eternity, whose name is Holy: / I will dwell in the high and holy place, / And with the contrite and lowly of spirit, / To revive the spirit of the lowly / And to revive the heart of the contrite. (Isaiah. 57:15)
You see? God inhabits eternity and longs to also dwell with man with a contrite and lowly spirit.
Why He wishes you eternal life is hard to fathom. But He does. And He will not grow bored with us.
He will conform us to His Son. And He is well pleased with His Son.


The concept of eternity is biblical. Ages of the ages as an expression amounts to perpetuity - forever - never ending - everlasting.
Here we can see "eternal" verses the opposite "temporary."

and completely disregarding “age-long,” or iow “a lifetime,“ and that they had a perfectly good expression for ”forever,” aidios, that was not used in those places, ever. Not once
look ic, you are totally entitled to all of your ”facts” ok, but this, right here, is why i avoid gnostic believers particularly, and despite that you are not required to seek any further if you dont want to imo, ok?
best of luck to you

and there is no punishment in Hades’ mythology btw, such as that implied in hell; no, they are not the same, and you do not yet even know where the word “hel” derives from, no offense
ill let you continue the sermon now,

Because we do not regard the things which are seen but the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporary, but the things which are not seen are eternal. (2 Cor. 4:18)
Here we also see the things "momentary" verses the things "eternal".
For our momentary lightness of affliction works out for us, more and more surpassingly, an eternal weight of glory, (v.17)


There is nothing wrong with being influenced by sincere people. I check everything with the word of God.
The final say is not anyone's sincerity but what I am told in the Bible.

Covetouesness and greediness with anxiety can make one's life very unhappy.
God loves a cheerful giver.
And it is my experience that I can NEVER outgive God.
The principle I have learned and STILL learning is "Horde unto poverty and give unto blessing and abundance."
This has taken time to learn. And my Father is very patient and longsuffering and understanding.
There is no way, I could ever accuse my heavenly Father of not meeing my need. Perhaps not all my WANTS are not given.
But cheerful giving to the Lord's work is a sweet blessing which the Father more than re-compensates.
If you cannot give cheerfully, better to not give at all.



What makes you think I miss the spiritual ascension meaning AS WELL as the supernatural going up in drammatic fashion?
We need all the ascending of Jesus as is available.
He ascended morally, spiritually, and He went up in their sight.
Why the need to make a false dichotomy of "either / or" ?

You know Paul told the Christians that if Jesus is not raised from the dead, our faith is in vain and we are of all people most pitiful
The same applies to His universal and ultimate vindication of His physical return. It is the one hope of our calling.
Where is your faith man?

Philippian 3:20,21 -
For our commonwealth exists in the heavens, from which also we eagerly await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,
Who will transfigure the body of our humiliation to be conformed to the body of His glory, according to His operation by which He is able even to subject all things to Himself.
Titus 2:13 - Awaiting the blessed hope, even the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,

So we need time to be filled with His Spirit more and more, like the wise virgins going forth to meet the Bridgroom.

Yes. He returns for His lovers.
In the meantime in Spirit He is with us until the consummation of the age.

it is obviously a complete waste of time pretending to have a conversation with you ic, if you are not going to actually respond to my posts. You cannot Quote this literal “return” one, single, time, and any and all of your gnostic statements to the contrary amount to so much horseshit bro, sorry. Wadr ill stick with “Return to Me…” ok?

He lives in me. And He is also coming for His lovers.
The second coming of Christ is the one inevitable of human history.
The total vindication of that Son of God is history's climax, consummation, and conclusion.
It is "Thy kingdm COME" not "Thy Kingdom GO."
It is a salvation not only of individuals but of the environment, the planet, the universe.
Romans 8: 19-23 -
For the anxious watching of the creation eagerly awaits the revelation of the sons of God.
For the creation was made subject to vanity, not of its own will, but because of Him who subjected it,
In hope that the creation itself will also be freed from the slavery of corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

For we know that the whole creation groans together and travails in pain together until now.
And not only so, but we ourselves also, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan in ourselves, eagerly awaiting sonship, the redemption of our body.

But according to His promise we are expecting new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells. (2 Pet. 3:13)
Rev. 21:1 - And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and the sea is no more.
Verse 5 - And He who sits on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And He said, Write, for these words are faithful and true.
See how exceedingly practical full salvation is?
He starts from the inside of our innermost being and works His way - out and out and out and even into the environment - a new heaven and new earth in which righteousness dwells.




As I spoke to a little - He works from the INSIDE of man OUT.
Here you are in part saying what I am saying.

" that Christ came that we might have LIFE, more abundantly, The kingdom of heaven is WITHIN"
Certainly God's purpose is to dispense Christ as life INTO man that man may LIVE out Christ. "Christ in you the hope of glory."
Actually that should read the kingsom of God is in your midst.

And when He was questioned by the Pharisees as to when the kingdom of God was coming, He answered them and said, The kingdom of God does not come with observation; Nor will they say, Behold, here it is! or, There! For behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you. (Luke 17:20,21)

and again i wish you the best of luck ok
should you regain your senses at some point and wish to have an actual conversation, holla

 

[AgnosticBoy]

hey, i was looking for ICs new thread, and discovered i have insufficient privileges to reply here https://theagnosticforum.com/thread...any-universes-in-a-multi-verse.426/#post-2373
?

Yes, that area is for those who are part of the Agnostic user group. Here are some of the requirements (also posted in full here):
- Agnostics who don't identify with the atheist nor theist label.
- Agnostic theists and agnostic atheists can also join but they must also identify with being a 'freethinker'. This type of agnosticism fits with Huxley's brand of agnosticism.
2. You need to be a part of the Agnostic usergroup to post here. Email or PM to add you to that usergroup.

If you those requirements fit you, then feel free to PM me you, and I can add you to the user group. Anyone else can do the same.

 

[Invited_Christian]

and completely disregarding “age-long,” or iow “a lifetime,“ and that they had a perfectly good expression for ”forever,” aidios, that was not used in those places, ever. Not once

I am very famiar the rendering in some places like "age abiding." Ie YLT uses that rendering.
If you claim forever cannot apply to punishment by the same token you should say it cannot apply to God reigning.
I cannot selectively claim "There is no punishment forever" I should be consistent and say "Neither does the Lord and His Christ reign forever."

Compare:
The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ, and He will reign forever and ever. (Rev. 11:15)
And the smoke of their tormenting goes up forever and ever; (Rev. 14:11)
My conscience doesn't allow me to make a special case for the ultimate punishing and not for the ultimate reigning Lordship of Christ. Something says to me "You know that you are not being honest there."
I expect on the last Judgment to be amazed at the wisdom of God. He knows all the facts and circumstances.
I am not eager, for the sake of upholding a doctrine of eternal punishment, to overly assign and overly predict who will be so punished. There is room for many surprises. And several passages show there are some "unknowns" about some situations.

The contrast between aionios and temporal is cleat to me. The OPPOSITE nature of eternal and temporary is highlighted.
Because we do not regard the things which are seen but the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporary (lasting but for a time), but the things which are not seen are eternal (aionios). (2 Cor. 4:18)
The temporary earthly tabernacle is taken down but we have a dwelling eternal (aionios) whose origin is from heaven.
For we know that if our earthly tabernacle dwelling is taken down, we have a building from God, a dwelling not made with hands, eternal, in the heavens. (2 Cor. 5:1)
Temporary is for a season. Eternal is forever.
For perhaps for this reason he was separated from you for but an hour, that you might fully have him forever, (Philem. 15)

Aionios expresses also God's endless existence.

Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel, that is, the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which has been kept in silence in the times of the ages but has now been manifested, and through the prophetic writings, according to the command of the eternal God, (Rom. 16:15,26a)

look ic, you are totally entitled to all of your ”facts” ok, but this, right here, is why i avoid gnostic believers particularly, and despite that you are not required to seek any further if you dont want to imo, ok?
best of luck to you

No not ok. I still seek deeper levels of understanding of God's truth.
I can understand aionios as forever and still be seeking more of the truth.

You assume that believing in the Bible something you don't like is being closed to more truth.
The truth is in the Person of Jesus. And I seek to know Him more and His word.

and there is no punishment in Hades’ mythology btw, such as that implied in hell; no, they are not the same, and you do not yet even know where the word “hel” derives from, no offense
ill let you continue the sermon now,

I saw no sermon. I wrote some quotations mostly.
Are you ready to say aionios does not apply to God's living, God's existence?

"the eternal God" (Rom. 16:26)

it is obviously a complete waste of time pretending to have a conversation with you ic,

Okay if thats the way you feel about it.
But your flimsy accusations of Gnosticism sound like so much bluffing to me.

if you are not going to actually respond to my posts.

I responded. You don't like the responses.
These things take time. And sometimes people get rather emotional about things.
I sense you kind of lashing out without careful consideration of that the Bible actually says.

You cannot Quote this literal “return” one, sin

gle, time, and any and all of your gnostic statements to the contrary amount to so much horseshit bro, sorry. Wadr ill stick with “Return to Me…” ok?

Ah, profanity and street language will make your case stronger?
I think I showed you respect and courtesy.
You see, I wasn't brought up in Sunday School all my life. I looked into these things. I still do.

At any rate, the Gnostics (Docetists in particular) argued that Jesus could not have been a physical person because matter is evil.
The entire Gospel of John and his epistles are an earlier church apologetic against Gnosticism - "And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us (and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only Begotten from the Father), full of grace and reality."(John 1:14)

But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately there came out blood and water.
And he who has seen this has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he says what is true, that you also may believe. (John 19:34,35)


So John's Gospel dispels Gnostic taking of Jesus as a phantasm or not a typical man.
God was incarnated as a man. And I am not a Gnostic for believing in either the incarnation or the second coming of Christ.

and again i wish you the best of luck ok
should you regain your senses at some point and wish to have an actual conversation, holla

That has a kind of intellectual snobbery sound to it.
Bantering around "Gnosticism" didn't work too well for you bbyrd009.

 

[Invited_Christian]

and completely disregarding “age-long,” or iow “a lifetime,“ and that they had a perfectly good expression for ”forever,” aidios, that was not used in those places, ever. Not once

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance Greek Dictionary says AIDIOS means everlasting.

aidios: everlasting
Original Word: ἀΐδιος, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: aidios
Phonetic Spelling: (ah-id'-ee-os)
Definition: everlasting
Usage: eternal, everlasting.

Everlasting means lasting ever.
That is a lasting which is not terminated.

look ic, you are totally entitled to all of your ”facts” ok, but this, right here, is why i avoid gnostic believers particularly, and despite that you are not required to seek any further if you dont want to imo, ok?
best of luck to you

I in turn am told in the New Testament to avoid those who have a form of godliness but deny its power.

Having an outward form of godliness, though denying its power; from these also turn away. (2 Tim. 3:5)

Englishman's Concordance on AIDIOS
Romans 1:20 Adj-NMS
GRK: ἥ τε ἀΐδιος αὐτοῦ δύναμις
NAS: His invisible attributes, His eternal power
KJV: [even] his eternal power and
INT: the both eternal of him power

and there is no punishment in Hades’ mythology btw, such as that implied in hell; no, they are not the same, and you do not yet even know where the word “hel” derives from, no offense
ill let you continue the sermon now,

"
And in Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, . . . " (See Luke 16:23)

If Jesus was teaching something here which was impossible He would be unrighteous to have taught it.
It would be against His righteous nature to convey something totally mythical and actually untrue.

Incidently, the expression "world without end" means an endless age or endless world.
This sense of everlastingness is expressed also as "all the generations" or rendered "all ages."

To Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus unto all the generations forever and ever. Amen. (Eph. 3:21 RcV)

Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen. (KJV)

Show us where all the future generations and eges come to a termination point.

and again i wish you the best of luck ok
should you regain your senses at some point and wish to have an actual conversation, holla

If I am a false teacher than you are hypocritical to wish me "good luck."

 

[bbyrd009]

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance Greek Dictionary says AIDIOS means everlasting.

aidios: everlasting
Original Word: ἀΐδιος, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: aidios
Phonetic Spelling: (ah-id'-ee-os)
Definition: everlasting
Usage: eternal, everlasting.

Everlasting means lasting ever.
That is a lasting which is not terminated.

yes ty ic, you are so wise

I in turn am told in the New Testament to avoid those who have a form of godliness but deny its power.

Having an outward form of godliness, though denying its power; from these also turn away. (2 Tim. 3:5)

yes ic, you are so holy, i am not worthy, got it

Englishman's Concordance on AIDIOS
Romans 1:20 Adj-NMS
GRK: ἥ τε ἀΐδιος αὐτοῦ δύναμις
NAS: His invisible attributes, His eternal power
KJV: [even] his eternal power and
INT: the both eternal of him power


"
And in Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, . . . " (See Luke 16:23)

If Jesus was teaching something here which was impossible He would be unrighteous to have taught it.
It would be against His righteous nature to convey something totally mythical and actually untrue.

Incidently, the expression "world without end" means an endless age or endless world.
This sense of everlastingness is expressed also as "all the generations" or rendered "all ages."

To Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus unto all the generations forever and ever. Amen. (Eph. 3:21 RcV)

Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen. (KJV)

Show us where all the future generations and eges come to a termination point.

All go to the same place
…and you and your sons will be here with me

just since you asked

If I am a false teacher than you are hypocritical to wish me "good luck."

well ic, idt you are meaning to be, but believers just seem to have a need to go throuh a gnostic phase, need to be right about everything, have all the facts down, and as you continue to evidence here that makes it difficult or impossible to hear anything else, or to respond honestly to it; your programming takes over, exactly like it would with me i guess.

So then you start presenting me the same facts that i have already suggested to you—like at the top, here—while still evincing a lack of understanding of it, somehow, and unfortunately i am just not accomplished enough a speaker to do that thing where it seems like it was your idea the whole time, although man i sure wish i was lol

for instance, Hades is a Greek god (whats he doing in your Bible, anyway?) whose dogma contains no punishment, as everyone would have known then (and a quick google search can verify now), so it might be that Jesus phrased it that way specifically bc it is a parable, not meant to be taken literally, or to present a conundrum/apparent contradiction like is done quite often in other parts of Scripture in order to (imo) lead to better wisdom (in the solving of the conundrum), but as long as you insist upon the “its like this and like that and like this“ thing, which you might note they are never stated alone but in gobs at a time, several questionable facts strung together, well at a certain point it is just prolly better to let you monologue without interrupting, since idk anyway, and for all i know you are spot on correct, ezackly like you seem to be convinced of

 

[bbyrd009]

I am very famiar the rendering in some places like "age abiding." Ie YLT uses that rendering.
If you claim forever cannot apply to punishment by the same token you should say it cannot apply to God reigning.
I cannot selectively claim "There is no punishment forever" I should be consistent and say "Neither does the Lord and His Christ reign forever."

ok well idk why, imo that is your gnosticism rearing its ugly and misinformed head, i mean why cannot punishment be age-long aionios yet Yah be reigning forever aidios, and pls take this as a rhetorical question.

Compare:
The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ, and He will reign forever and ever. (Rev. 11:15)
And the smoke of their tormenting goes up forever and ever; (Rev. 14:11)
My conscience doesn't allow me to make a special case for the ultimate punishing and not for the ultimate reigning Lordship of Christ. Something says to me "You know that you are not being honest there."

there you go knowing again
lol
unfortunately who is prolly not being honest is the scribe who xlated that, since they are both from “aion” and both repeated, “aion aion,” which imo just carries a different meaning than “forever and ever” which would be aidios, but i am just not inclined to explore that any more with you, at least as long as you know everything

I expect on the last Judgment to be amazed at the wisdom of God. He knows all the facts and circumstances.
I am not eager, for the sake of upholding a doctrine of eternal punishment, to overly assign and overly predict who will be so punished. There is room for many surprises. And several passages show there are some "unknowns" about some situations.

The contrast between aionios and temporal is cleat to me. The OPPOSITE nature of eternal and temporary is highlighted.
Because we do not regard the things which are seen but the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporary (lasting but for a time), but the things which are not seen are eternal (aionios). (2 Cor. 4:18)
The temporary earthly tabernacle is taken down but we have a dwelling eternal (aionios) whose origin is from heaven.
For we know that if our earthly tabernacle dwelling is taken down, we have a building from God, a dwelling not made with hands, eternal, in the heavens. (2 Cor. 5:1)
Temporary is for a season. Eternal is forever.
For perhaps for this reason he was separated from you for but an hour, that you might fully have him forever, (Philem. 15)

Aionios expresses also God's endless existence.

Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel, that is, the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which has been kept in silence in the times of the ages but has now been manifested, and through the prophetic writings, according to the command of the eternal God, (Rom. 16:15,26a)


No not ok. I still seek deeper levels of understanding of God's truth.
I can understand aionios as forever and still be seeking more of the truth.

You assume that believing in the Bible something you don't like is being closed to more truth.
The truth is in the Person of Jesus. And I seek to know Him more and His word.


I saw no sermon. I wrote some quotations mostly.
Are you ready to say aionios does not apply to God's living, God's existence?

I said “you are Elohim“ thats Yah, speaking about us, so there is prolly also a sense in which God is “age-long“ i guess
being as how God is not living, but Spirit…however, i am not inclined to discuss this with you anymore, sorry

"the eternal God" (Rom. 16:26)


Okay if thats the way you feel about it.
But your flimsy accusations of Gnosticism sound like so much bluffing to me.

well, being as how thats one of the first qualified statements you have made here i dont see how, i mean just go read anything else you have posted, but tbh irdc what it sounds like to you now

I responded. You don't like the responses.
These things take time. And sometimes people get rather emotional about things.
I sense you kind of lashing out without careful consideration of that the Bible actually says.


Ah, profanity and street language will make your case stronger?

anything to avoid the point, right

I think I showed you respect and courtesy.
You see, I wasn't brought up in Sunday School all my life. I looked into these things. I still do.

At any rate, the Gnostics (Docetists in particular) argued that Jesus could not have been a physical person because matter is evil.
The entire Gospel of John and his epistles are an earlier church apologetic against Gnosticism - "And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us (and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only Begotten from the Father), full of grace and reality."(John 1:14)

But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately there came out blood and water.
And he who has seen this has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he says what is true, that you also may believe. (John 19:34,35)


So John's Gospel dispels Gnostic taking of Jesus as a phantasm or not a typical man.
God was incarnated as a man. And I am not a Gnostic for believing in either the incarnation or the second coming of Christ.


That has a kind of intellectual snobbery sound to it.
Bantering around "Gnosticism" didn't work too well for you bbyrd009.

possibly bc im more interested in how a gnostic is identified now than your wiki definition of it, but who knows. Oh ya, you.
which btw i dont even blame you for, its just something most everyone does, that you cant see until you see, and then you cant unsee, and this is how you get made aware of it i guess.

We tend to speak in factoids, as if we were God, and we even have a (veiled) warning about ppl like that at standing in the holy place, proclaiming himself to be God and when you see the abomination of desolation standing where it does not belong, you who are in Jerusalem head for the mountains

anyway, last word to you