Featured Does the Old Testament make any reference to the Trinity?

[Alter2Ego]

So you claim, Scooter, without quoting a single verse of scripture to support YOUR personal philosophy. Begin by providing your first three scriptural examples. Quote the verses verbatim and provide Bible book, chapter, and verse.

Gen.1: 26 At creation, God spoke in the plural sense.
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness…

Genesis 1:26 doesn't do a thing for your trinitarian argument, Scooter, because at that point, there were millions of angels in existence. Jehovah God happened to be speaking to one of them. The same one that came to earth and given the name Jesus.

 

[Alter2Ego]

Gen. 18:1-2 Jesus, God in the flesh, appeared to Abraham.
And the Lord appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,

Nonsense. Genesis 18:1-2 makes no mention of Jesus, and for good reason: The writing of that book was completed by Moses in 1513 B.C.E. At that point in time, Jesus was still heaven and had not yet been sent to earth. It was not until the First Century C.E., over a thousand years later, that Jesus' spirit life was transferred by Jehovah into the womb of the virgin named Mary.

The two verses at Genesis say the following:

Genesis 18:1 -- American Standard Version​

"And Jehovah appeared unto him [Abraham] by the oaks of Mamre, as he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;"

Genesis 18:2 --American Standard Version​

"and he [Abraham] lifted up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood over against him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself to the earth,"


Genesis 18:1 distinctly identifies Jehovah (the Father) as the person who "appeared" to Abraham in the form of a "man."

 

[Alter2Ego]

Isaiah 6:8 God asked who would go for “Us”, also plural.
Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.

There were several Theophanies of the pre-incarnate Jesus in the OT such as when Jesus wrestled with Jacob and when He appeared to Joshua before the battle of Jericho.

Scooter:

You are cherry-picking and ignoring the context (surrounding words, verses, and/or chapters). The preceding verses mention that Jehovah was accompanied by "seraphs" aka angels.

Isaiah 6:1​

In the year that King Uz·ziʹah died, I saw Jehovah sitting on a lofty and elevated throne, and the skirts of his robe filled the temple.

Isaiah 6:2​

Seraphs were standing above him; each had six wings. Each covered his face with two and covered his feet with two, and each of them would fly about with two.

Isaiah 6:6​

At that, one of the seraphs flew to me, and in his hand was a glowing coal that he had taken with tongs from the altar.

Isaiah 6:8​

Then I heard the voice of Jehovah saying: “Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?” And I said: “Here I am! Send me!”


By the time we reach verse 8, it should be clear that when Jehovah said "us," he was referring to himself and the seraphs/angels that were with him. The problem is that like all Trinitarians, you are reading scripture with trinitarian lenses by ignoring surrounding verses (context), because the context debunks your philosophy.

 

[Alter2Ego]

Isaiah 6:8 God asked who would go for “Us”, also plural.
Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.

There were several Theophanies of the pre-incarnate Jesus in the OT such as when Jesus wrestled with Jacob and when He appeared to Joshua before the battle of Jericho.

Scooter:

There are no scriptures in the Old Testament aka Hebrew Scriptures that says Jesus wrestled with Jacob.

Again, Jesus didn't show up on earth until the First Century C.E. when he was born as an infant. What you are referencing is the scriptural account at Genesis 32:22-31 where Jacob wrestled with an angel.

 

[Scooter]

Genesis 1:26 doesn't do a thing for your trinitarian argument, Scooter, because at that point, there were millions of angels in existence. Jehovah God happened to be speaking to one of them. The same one that came to earth and given the name Jesus.

Ok, Jesus is not an angel. He is God in the flesh. And He was active at the creation. Look at John 1:1-3 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Also, mankind is made in the image and likeness of God. Not in the image and likeness of angels: Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

1 Corinthians 11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.

So God the Father, God the Son and God the Spirit were all present and active at creation.

 

[Scooter]

Nonsense. Genesis 18:1-2 makes no mention of Jesus, and for good reason: The writing of that book was completed by Moses in 1513 B.C.E. At that point in time, Jesus was still heaven and had not yet been sent to earth. It was not until the First Century C.E., over a thousand years later, that Jesus' spirit life was transferred by Jehovah into the womb of the virgin named Mary.

Sorry, but that is wrong. This appearance of God had to be Jesus pre-incarnate. When Moses asked to see God's face, he was told no man could see His face and live (Ex. 33:18-22). Therefore, we know God in Genesis 18 was not the Father. It had to be God the Son. As you pointed out, it was Jehovah in the flesh.

 

[Scooter]

By the time we reach verse 8, it should be clear that when Jehovah said "us," he was referring to himself and the seraphs/angels that were with him. The problem is that like all Trinitarians, you are reading scripture with trinitarian lenses by ignoring surrounding verses (context), because the context debunks your philosophy.

This too is incorrect. There is no reference at all to Isaiah preaching about angels. Isaiah's message focused on God and God alone. When God said "us" He was referencing Himself, the Son and the Spirit. Angels have nothing to do with salvation, redemption or reconciling man to God. Angels were God's messengers, not His equals. In fact, angels refuse worship from men (Rev.19:10).

Here is a quote from the Bible commentator John Gill concerning this verse:

and who will go for us? not directing his discourse to the seraphim, as Aben Ezra and Kimchi; as if he consulted with them: for who of all the creatures is the Lord's counsellor? but to the Son and Spirit, who it is certain were concerned in this mission

 

[Scooter]

There are no scriptures in the Old Testament aka Hebrew Scriptures that says Jesus wrestled with Jacob.

Again, Jesus didn't show up on earth until the First Century C.E. when he was born as an infant. What you are referencing is the scriptural account at Genesis 32:22-31 where Jacob wrestled with an angel.

And again, this is false. No angel is mentioned in this account. Notice what the Bible clearly states: Genesis 32:24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.

Jacob wrestled with a man, not an angel. When the event was over, Jacob realized he had been in the presence of God: Genesis 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

Remember, no man can see God the Father's face and live. So, this had to be Jesu pre-incarnate. There are numerous Bibler scholars and theologians who recognize Christophanies in the Old Testament.

Here is an example from Adam Clarke:

And there wrestled a man with him - This was doubtless the Lord Jesus Christ, who, among the patriarchs, assumed that human form, which in the fullness of time he really took of a woman, and in which he dwelt thirty-three years among men.

 

[Alter2Ego]

Genesis 1:26 doesn't do a thing for your trinitarian argument, Scooter, because at that point, there were millions of angels in existence. Jehovah God happened to be speaking to one of them. The same one that came to earth and given the name Jesus.

Ok, Jesus is not an angel. He is God in the flesh. And He was active at the creation. Look at John 1:1-3 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Also, mankind is made in the image and likeness of God. Not in the image and likeness of angels: Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
1 Corinthians 11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
So God the Father, God the Son and God the Spirit were all present and active at creation.

Telling me Jesus is not an angel is the typical denial I get from Trinitarians so they can continue clinging to the falsehood that Jesus is "God in the flesh," Scooter.

Scripture makes it clear that Almighty God is not human.

"God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?" (Numbers 23:19 -- New International Version)


BTW: Plastering your comments with several scriptures at a time (I enlarged and bolded all three in your comment) doesn't help your Trinitarian argument because none of those scriptures support your ideology. In fact, John 1:1 actually debunks Christendom's Trinity.

I will address those three scriptures in separate posts.

 

[Alter2Ego]

Nonsense. Genesis 18:1-2 makes no mention of Jesus, and for good reason: The writing of that book was completed by Moses in 1513 B.C.E. At that point in time, Jesus was still heaven and had not yet been sent to earth. It was not until the First Century C.E., over a thousand years later, that Jesus' spirit life was transferred by Jehovah into the womb of the virgin named Mary.

Sorry, but that is wrong. This appearance of God had to be Jesus pre-incarnate. When Moses asked to see God's face, he was told no man could see His face and live (Ex. 33:18-22). Therefore, we know God in Genesis 18 was not the Father. It had to be God the Son. As you pointed out, it was Jehovah in the flesh.

That's wishful thinking on your part, Scooter. The scripture named JEHOVAH aka YAHWEH aka YHWH (the Father) as the person that appeared to Abraham at Genesis 18:1. Below are five different Bibles saying exactly that.


"And Jehovah appeared unto him by the oaks of Mamre, as he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;"
(Genesis 18:1 -- American Standard Version)

Genesis 18 ASV

"Then Yahweh appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day."
(Genesis 18:1 -- Legacy Standard Bible)

Genesis 18 Legacy Standard Bible

And Jehovah appeareth unto him among the oaks of Mamre, and he is sitting at the opening of the tent, about the heat of the day;" (Genesis 18:1 --Young's Literal Translation)

Genesis 18 YLT

"And YHWH appears to him among the oaks of Mamre, and he is sitting at the opening of the tent, about the heat of the day;"
(Genesis 18:1 -- Literal Standard Translation)

Genesis 18 Literal Standard Version

"And Jehovah will be seen to him at the oaks of Mamra: and he will sit at the entrance of his tent at the heat of the day."
(Genesis 18:1 --Smith's Literal Translation)

Genesis 18 Smith's Literal Translation