Does the Old Testament make any reference to the Trinity?

[AgnosticBoy]

The trinity is a concept that God exists as 3 persons, that is, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Is there any indication or reference to the trinity in the Old Testament?

 

[Multicolored Lemur]

Not that I know of.

But then again, the Old Testament has a lot more pages than the New Testament.

 

[Muckah]

The trinity is a concept that God exists as 3 persons, that is, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Is there any indication or reference to the trinity in the Old Testament?

There's no evidence of a Trinity in the entire bible. It's a man-made diabolical concept devised by Rome. There have been thousands of people tortured and murdered over it. That doctrine alone has divided Christianity more than anything else.

 

[AgnosticBoy]

There's no evidence of a Trinity in the entire bible. It's a man-made diabolical concept devised by Rome. There have been thousands of people tortured and murdered over it. That doctrine alone has divided Christianity more than anything else.

I forgot that some find it questionable that the Trinity is even in the New Testament, but that would be a separate topic.

In the Old Testament, the first place that I find some Christians point to is in Genesis 1:26 where it uses the word "our".

26 Then God said, “Let Us make mankind in Our image, according to Our likeness

That sounds like a group talking.

I'm also real interested in a being that the Old Testament refers to as being the "Angel of the Lord". Some take this being to be a pre-incarnate appearance of Jesus. Here's one short explanation on that:

From gotquestions.org

The doctrine of the Trinity finds support in the Old Testament in the appearances of the Angel of the Lord:
In several places, the Old Testament records encounters with someone called “the Angel of the Lord.” This supernatural presence speaks as if He is God, identifies Himself with God, and exercises the responsibilities of God. For example, in Genesis 16:10, the Angel of the Lord says to Hagar, “I will increase your descendants so much that they will be too numerous to count.” Of course, God is the One who blesses Ishmael, but it’s the Angel of the Lord who personally makes the promise to his mother.

The same Angel of the Lord appears to Abraham and assumes the role of God, saying, “Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son” (Genesis 22:12, emphasis added ). See also Exodus 3:2; Judges 2:1–4; 5:23; 6:11–24; 13:3–22; 2 Samuel 24:16; Zechariah 1:12; 3:1; 12:8. In several passages, those who see the Angel of the Lord fear for their lives because they had “seen the Lord.” It’s clear that the Angel of the Lord was no mere angel. Viewed through the lens of the New Testament teaching of the Trinity, it’s easy to conclude that the Angel of the Lord could be a pre-incarnate appearance of Christ.

 

[Muckah]

I forgot that some find it questionable that the Trinity is even in the New Testament, but that would be a separate topic.

In the Old Testament, the first place that I find some Christians point to is in Genesis 1:26 where it uses the word "our".

That sounds like a group talking.

I'm also real interested in a being that the Old Testament refers to as being the "Angel of the Lord". Some take this being to be a pre-incarnate appearance of Jesus. Here's one short explanation on that:

From gotquestions.org

We must first keep in mind what Trinity teaches.

Jesus is God - God is Jesus - Jesus is the holy spirit - the holy spirit is Jesus - God is the holy spirit - the holy spirit is God. All three are equal in power, knowledge, and presence. The word US and OUR don't imply co-equality by any means. The most outrageous teaching of all is that Jesus had TWO natures.

I look at this logically. In my view, the only way God could have created anything as intricate and detailed as galaxies for example was for Him to have workers. Those workers are angels and there are many hierarchies of angels all with different functions, strengths, and purposes. The words 'us and our' indicate God was speaking to angels.

The 'angel of the Lord' could well be Jesus which means he was created and had a beginning - just like the word 'firstborn' implies.

Trinity was devised by Catholics.

The following information is found all over the web.

The Trinity was argued for about 400 years and voted on 3-4 times before it passed. When it finally did pass it did so by a very narrow margin of votes. It became a 'middle ground' agreement among the bishops.

Jesus became God at the council of Nicaea in 325 AD.

The holy spirit became God at the Council at Constantinople in 381AD.

Then because there were so many contradictions with Jesus being EQUAL to the Father that the bishops could NOT overcome, (Like Jesus saying the Father is Greater, etc.) those contradictions were overcome in 451AD under pope Leo the Great at the council at Chalcedon. That's when Jesus acquired TWO NATURES which is the ultimate Trinitarian cop-out to every Trinitarian contradiction.

 

[AgnosticBoy]

Moderator Comment
This message does not count against anyone but it's just to acknowledge that a report has been received regarding strong language against Catholicism. Such language is allowed since it is about a view and not Catholics themselves.

Also, as per the rules, side commentary and rhetoric should be kept to a minimum in debate sections. This helps to keep discussions from becoming too polarizing and partisan.

 

[AgnosticBoy]

We must first keep in mind what Trinity teaches.

Jesus is God - God is Jesus - Jesus is the holy spirit - the holy spirit is Jesus - God is the holy spirit - the holy spirit is God. All three are equal in power, knowledge, and presence. The word US and OUR don't imply co-equality by any means.

I don't have a firm position, but I'll offer another perspective.

My view is not that there's no Trinity, but rather that there is more than one Trinitarian explanation, and some are more reasonable than others, of course. The Trinitarian version that Muckah cites might be one of the unreasonable ones. The problem with that version of the Trinity seems to be about trying to explain how all 3 are equal in every way. But I think there's room for another version where they don't have to be equal in every way. The Trinity can involve a hierarchy consisting of 3 persons, with the father being the greatest. Jesus also pointed to a hierarchy:

29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
...
This indicates that the Father is not only greater than Jesus, but even the Holy Spirit.

 

[Muckah]

I don't have a firm position, but I'll offer another perspective.

My view is not that there's no Trinity, but rather that there is more than one Trinitarian explanation, and some are more reasonable than others, of course. The Trinitarian version that Muckah cites might be one of the unreasonable ones. The problem with that version of the Trinity seems to be about trying to explain how all 3 are equal in every way. But I think there's room for another version where they don't have to be equal in every way. The Trinity can involve a hierarchy consisting of 3 persons, with the father being the greatest. Jesus also pointed to a hierarchy:

29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
...
This indicates that the Father is not only greater than Jesus, but even the Holy Spirit.

I was explaining what Trinitarians believe - which is Jesus was fully God and Fully man at the same time and the three are co-equal. That's not my position. That position IS the most unreasonable version of Trinity.

My belief is this...

There is only one God who does NOT exist in three persons. He is the sole possessor of Himself.

The bible says that God is not man...

‘God is not a man’ (Numbers 23:19)

‘For I am God, and not man’ (Hosea 11:9)

God is greater than Jesus...

‘My Father is greater than I’ (John 14:28)

‘My father is greater than all.’ (John 10:29

Jesus was fully human and called a man many times in the Bible.

‘a man who has told you the truth’ (John 8:40)

Hebrews 2:17 For this reason he had to be made like them, fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.

Jesus said, 'the Father is greater'. He also said he doesn't know the day or hour of his return and only the Father knows. IF Jesus was God, he would know! He also said he can do 'nothing on his own'.

Jesus said blasphemy against him will be forgiven but blasphemy against the holy spirit will not. If they were the same person AS TRINITARIANISM TEACHES - blasphemy against one would be blasphemy against the other.

IF Jesus was God, then one could say he's a fraud and the cross is a hoax. Why? We know that God cannot be tempted, and He cannot sin. IF Jesus was God, that means that Jesus COULD NOT HAVE BEEN TEMPTED TO SIN anyway, making Jesus a fraud, the cross a hoax and to no effect, and Christianity a false religion!

The holy spirit is the power of God.

And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

The Anchor Bible Dictionary, in its article on the Holy Spirit, describes it as "The manifestation of divine presence and power perceptible especially in prophetic inspiration."

Luke 4:14 And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about.

Acts 1:8 says, "You shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you…"

Acts 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

Romans 15:13 Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.

Romans 15:19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about to Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.
_____________________________________________________________-

Trinitarians even admit that it's impossible to understand or explain the Trinity, yet many of them condemn people who reject it!

 

[Bill]

You do know that quoting the bible to prove the truth of scripture is the base of a very common fallacy? So common it gets pretty endemic on some threads around here.

 

[2Dbunk]

In reading these posts I am reminded of what someone (Anatole France?) once said about theology: "That science which treats the unknowable with infinitesimal exactitude."