Featured Mark 4:12 Jesus speaks in parables “‘ . . lest they should turn and be forgiven.’” ? ?

[AgnosticBoy]

Bible Gateway passage: Mark 4 - English Standard Version

The Parable of the Sower - Again he began to teach beside the sea. And a very large crowd gathered about him, so that he got into a boat and sat in it on the sea, and the whole crowd was beside the sea on the land. And he was teaching them many things in parables, and in his teaching he said to...

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10 And when he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables. 11 And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, 12 so that

“‘they may indeed see but not perceive,​

and may indeed hear but not understand,​

lest they should turn and be forgiven.’”​

(ESV, or English Standard Version)


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Wow.

You’d think Jesus would want as many people to understand him as possible. But that’s not what this says.

Plus, the set-off part seems to be a quote from elsewhere which is being re-purposed for use here.

Agreed. Seems to conflict with 2 Peter 3:9,

The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

I'll start checking what my go-to sites have to say.

 

[AgnosticBoy]

You’d think Jesus would want as many people to understand him as possible. But that’s not what this says.

Plus, the set-off part seems to be a quote from elsewhere which is being re-purposed for use here.

I know the trend here is that the passage isnt literal. One of my go-to sites says that passage you quoted was meant to be taken literally.

Interestingly, there are parallel stories of your Mark 4 passage that's in Matthew and Luke. In Mark, not being able to hear and understand seems to be due to the parable. In Matthews version (in chapter 13:13-15), that isn't worded that way that it seems to put the outsiders spiritual blindness on the outsider and not on Jesus and his parables.

Here's how one source explains it:

It seems that the Markan Jesus deliberately uses parables to prevent 'those on the outside' from understanding, repentance and forgiveness. Luke retains the 'so that', but does not distinguish between the two groups that sharply, as he refers to 'others' and not 'those on the outside'. He omits Mark's apparent offensive phrase about the prevention of repentance and forgiveness. Matthew smooths out some of these difficulties by changing the 'so that' to 'because'. According to Matthew, Jesus speaks in parables because the people do not see, hear and understand.

[Emphasis added]
Source: here

Even if this explanation is correct, we still have to explain why are there different versions of the story and which one was likely correct. And instead of just looking at Matthew, we need to explain why would Jesus cause the spiritual blindness as reported in the other Gospels.

 

[Multicolored Lemur]

Even if this explanation is correct, we still have to explain why are there different versions

I say, because the Bible is a book, just like any other book.

In addition, complete forgiveness even late in the game is a topic which people tend to go back and forth on.

 

[bbyrd009]

I know the trend here is that the passage isnt literal. One of my go-to sites says that passage you quoted was meant to be taken literally.

Interestingly, there are parallel stories of your Mark 4 passage that's in Matthew and Luke. In Mark, not being able to hear and understand seems to be due to the parable. In Matthews version (in chapter 13:13-15), that isn't worded that way that it seems to put the outsiders spiritual blindness on the outsider and not on Jesus and his parables.

Here's how one source explains it:

[Emphasis added]
Source: here

Even if this explanation is correct, we still have to explain why are there different versions of the story and which one was likely correct. And instead of just looking at Matthew, we need to explain why would Jesus cause the spiritual blindness as reported in the other Gospels.

well, we ask little children what their response is to adult situations, kinda like for a joke, yes? And the Bible even says that one living in the world will be forced into sin just to get along. So you ask why would Jesus “cause” the blindness, but im not sure that that is the…right frame?

we treasure little kids and dogs, would run into burning houses to literally “save” them, but see we would rarely contemplate actually becoming like them and still trying to get along in the world, right? So, Wisdom is hidden from the wise suggests that it is the (false) wisdom that is doing the hiding, imo.

 

[bbyrd009]

I say, because the Bible is a book, just like any other book.

most books dont seem to employ contradiction and misdirection to make their points, imo
especially while still being called “book of truth” (which the Bible isnt btw, i guess; there was a “book of truth” referred to in the Bible)

In addition, complete forgiveness even late in the game is a topic which people tend to go back and forth on.

what do you mean here?

 

[Multicolored Lemur]

we treasure little kids and dogs, would run into burning houses to literally “save” them, but see we would rarely contemplate actually becoming like them and still trying to get along in the world,

I’m going to say this is among the zen-like approaches attributed to the sayings of Jesus.

For example, the whole he is who first shall be last, and he who is last . . .

 

[Multicolored Lemur]

most books dont seem to employ contradiction and misdirection to make their points

But compilations do, and probably Shakespeare, too.

 

[Multicolored Lemur]

what do you mean here?

The whole Christian program of radical forgiveness. That all a person has to do is sincerely repent and ask for forgiveness.

So radical, that even though Baptist Church members (and others) who verbally say they believe in “once saved, always saved,” but if an actual person is a sincere Christian and then comes to some kind of crisis and decides it just isn’t true [and becoming an atheist will often happen both gradually and all at once],

other Christians will often say they were never a Christian in the first place.

For example, me . . .

I was a very sincere Christian at age 14 and half of age 15. This “being filled with the spirit” didn’t work like a Christian book said it worked, some doubts, being a devout, practicing Christian didn’t really led to closeness with others like I though it, more doubts, etc.

But I assure people I was a very sincere Christian. And, too much so, too energetically so. So much so that I can only share some of this stuff because it’s traumatic and confusing. I mean, to me.

And yet, evangelical Christians almost have to say I was never really a Christian.

 

[bbyrd009]

The whole Christian program of radical forgiveness. That all a person has to do is sincerely repent and ask for forgiveness.

So radical, that even though Baptist Church members (and others) who verbally say they believe in “once saved, always saved,” but if an actual person is a sincere Christian and then comes to some kind of crisis and decides it just isn’t true [and becoming an atheist will often happen both gradually and all at once],

other Christians will often say they were never a Christian in the first place.

For example, me . . .

I was a very sincere Christian at age 14 and half of age 15. This “being filled with the spirit” didn’t work like a Christian book said it worked, some doubts, being a devout, practicing Christian didn’t really led to closeness with others like I though it, more doubts, etc.

But I assure people I was a very sincere Christian. And, too much so, too energetically so. So much so that I can only share some of this stuff because it’s traumatic and confusing. I mean, to me.

And yet, evangelical Christians almost have to say I was never really a Christian.

well, by “Christian” im assuming “religious,” and idt thats the ultimate goal, anyway?
They were first called Christians at Antioch ends up being a thinly veiled put-down, imo; once you get what was meant by “Christians” then, and what “Antioch” stands for

 

[Multicolored Lemur]

And this part which says, “lest they should turn and be forgiven,”

well, on its face, it sounds like it’s saying, Hey, we’re already in the club, but you other people, you ain’t in the club.