For popular or very good threads

Multicolored Lemur

Well-known member
Atheist / Agnostic
Nov 23, 2021
753
271

.

.

.

10 And when he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables. 11 And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, 12 so that

“‘they may indeed see but not perceive,​
and may indeed hear but not understand,​
lest they should turn and be forgiven.’”


(ESV, or English Standard Version)


*********************

Wow.

You’d think Jesus would want as many people to understand him as possible. But that’s not what this says.

Plus, the set-off part seems to be a quote from elsewhere which is being re-purposed for use here.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: AgnosticBoy

.

.

.

10 And when he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables. 11 And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, 12 so that

“‘they may indeed see but not perceive,​
and may indeed hear but not understand,​
lest they should turn and be forgiven.’”


(ESV, or English Standard Version)


*********************

Wow.

You’d think Jesus would want as many people to understand him as possible. But that’s not what this says.

Plus, the set-off part seems to be a quote from elsewhere which is being re-purposed for use here.
while i cant say i know, i suggest that what is being described is what we might call “self-delusion,” or might even be described today as Dunning-Kruger Syndrome? Imo it also works to suggest that the Bible must needs be read on a different level
 
  • Like
Reactions: Multicolored Lemur
Imo it also works to suggest that the Bible must needs be read on a different level
Maybe as lore and legend, perhaps even poetry? For example, “The Good Samaritan” can be an inspiring story of helping, whether or not it actually happened.

I’m a little familiar with the Dunning-Kruger Syndrome, that people unskilled in an area tend to over-estimate their ability. My question is, what connection are you thinking of in this context, that people just jump in and assume big sections of the Bible are to be read literally?
 
Maybe as lore and legend, perhaps even poetry? For example, “The Good Samaritan” can be an inspiring story of helping, whether or not it actually happened.

I’m a little familiar with the Dunning-Kruger Syndrome, that people unskilled in an area tend to over-estimate their ability. My question is, what connection are you thinking of in this context, that people just jump in and assume big sections of the Bible are to be read literally?
ha well lets be honest, most ppl really dont read the Bible at all; they trust other believers to decipher it for them, and those believers usually come with an agenda. Which imo is even understandable; the Hebrews literally thought differently than we do in the Western world, they defined and labeled things differently, apparently going more for function over form, so things used as allegory like “lion” or “eagle” are easily misinterpreted now—these were surely both used as put-downs in the Bible, whereas we think of “lion of Judah” as a good thing, right?

So i think it can be easy to like idolize them, forgetting that they were scattered to the four winds not once, but twice, and in NT times they were vassals in their own land, ruled by Rome, on the verge of civil war. Ppl fail to grasp that “baptizing ppl in the Jordan river” amounts to sedition in a theocracy. The NT Hebrews strike me mostly as a record of the final failure of a theocracy, “Lazarus died,” Lazarus being code for Eleazer, who prolly repped it, and passages like “the virgin will be with child” would almost surely have been understood completely differently than we do today; the Virgin back then surely meant Athena, or at least thats what everyone alive then would have heard imo.

At “dunning-kruger,” i think that is just a natural response to a world of emerging facts; ppl generally dont like to be perceived as ignorant of things, and will inevitably dumb-down a concept to fit into their existing framework of understanding? And the Bible seems almost eager to lead the headstrong and superstitious into…ha, well, obviously warped interpretations like literal miraculous virgin births, or even Prosperity Gospel…i mean how many believers might i convince, or even get to ponder the possibility that there was no “Mary,” and that the Bible is referring to Athena worship evolving into something else?

See, they have knowledge, right? Only no or at least few believers i have ever encountered understand that “Mary” has a meaning…and most of them dont even want to know what it is, doesnt seem like. So this “lest they should turn and be forgiven” is also a way to say “this is how one turns, to be forgiven,” isnt it? But fwiw i dont mean to say that i look down upon believers or anything; they will escape in their own time, i guess, i mean most ppl do.

Unfortunately they toss the baby with the bathwater usually, and just bail on the Bible; which i also get, i mean who can contemplate themselves, a believer, as Legion? Which is surely what Legion is a description of, right down to “wanting to go with Jesus” (the inference being “to heaven, after death.”) ok ive blabbed enough i guess, but a point i hope to make here is that the Bible can really open up to one when they refuse to assume the pov that the Bible leads one into assuming; try playing around with the povs iow, keep an open mind, etc. Not really very hard to see that religious ppl were anathema to “Jesus.”
 
Unfortunately they toss the baby with the bathwater usually, and just bail on the Bible;
I’d also say the healthiest people take the Bible as poetry and a limited number of inspiring stories.

Most people just don’t want take religion all that seriously, and when I was a teenager, I wish I could be one of them!

And/or there are many ways of being healthy. :)
 
  • Like
Reactions: bbyrd009
And it quickly comes to, well, without the Bible, how are we possibly going to have ethics and morality . . .

Look, if I meet someone and their spouse is facing a serious medical challenge, I’m going to feel for them and wish I could do something. And many people would love to give to charity if they had confidence the money was really going to be used for the end purposes.

I’m going to ask this question: In the field of ethics, why do we feel that “punishment” is the end-all and be-all?
 
97836971-business-ethics-outline-icon-set-with-honesty-isolated-on-plain-background.jpg



Deontological_Ethics.png


And if someone wants a more intellectual approach to ethics such as these, there’s a ton of additional material out there.

I’m going to say that John Stuart Mill’s “Principle of Utility” is a B+ theory. And as a human being, that might be about the best we can get.

Immanuel Kant’s “Categorical Imperative” might also be a B+ theory. I just wish I understood it better.
 
i wonder if what Scripture prosaically describes as “hearing” might supercede most of that, tbh; not that im particularly good at it, mind you, but i can see how just being able to empathize with someone (that you may not necessarily agree with) might negate the need for any philosophical “ethics”
 
see how just being able to empathize with someone (that you may not necessarily agree with) might negate the need for any philosophical “ethics”

Yes, I can see this with families.

In a functional family, you don’t need “rights,” at least not near as much. In dysfunction families, you kind of do! 😜
 
  • Like
Reactions: bbyrd009
  • Like
Reactions: Multicolored Lemur