Featured The Gospel of Mark successfully reconciles 2 different versions of the Miracle of Loaves and Fishes

[Multicolored Lemur]

Bible Gateway passage: Mark 8 - English Standard Version

Jesus Feeds the Four Thousand - In those days, when again a great crowd had gathered, and they had nothing to eat, he called his disciples to him and said to them, “I have compassion on the crowd, because they have been with me now three days and have nothing to eat. And if I send them away...

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Chapter 8 —
verse 6 — And he directed the crowd to sit down on the ground. And he took the seven loaves, and having given thanks, he broke them and gave them to his disciples to set before the people; and they set them before the crowd.
7 — And they had a few small fish. And having blessed them, he said that these also should be set before them.

— ESV, meaning English Standard Version

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When Jesus does this same type of miracle a second time in Chapter 8, he again gives thanks.

 

[Scooter]

Irenaeus lived quite a bit later. He was born circa 130 AD.

True, but as an early church father he lived some 263 years before the Council of Hippo where the New Testament was first canonized. He lived many centuries closer to the original writing than modern "scholars". I trust those who lived within a generation of the original writers or those who knew the original authors.

 

[Multicolored Lemur]

I find it amazing how early church fathers, who lived within one generation from the original writing, accept the authorship of Mark, but modern "scholars", two millennia removed, reject Mark as the author. . . .

We have some agreement.

Yes, people have world views. And the closer it is to the core of their personality, the tighter they’re going to cling to it.

For example —

I believe grief hallucinations are a real thing. I remember the number 25 percent who have recently lost a friend or loved one will feel their presence, or hear them, or see them. I’m guessing briefly but maybe repeatedly.

Now, it’s possible that some researchers are really down on organized religion, that in edge cases of whether to keep someone in a study or not, they’re cheating on the side of keeping their numbers. Or . . . or they might just be doing that to make their study more important [ and likely to be published! ]

With spouses, I understand the number is higher then 25%.

Grief hallucination — and this does seem to be the term in the literature

Yes, I’m using the term in a religious and/or philosophy discussion.

But I think most of the researchers and mental health pros are doing it to help people. To be able to tell people, yes, this is normal, please don’t worry about it. In fact, maybe even learn from other people’s experiences [ some of this is lost when psychologists try to summarize too much ]

 

[Scooter]

I understand grief hallucinations may be a real thing, but I can’t believe over 500 people at once imagined seeing a risen Jesus. Has there ever been a documented case where hundreds of people had the same hallucination at the same time? If not, I wonder upon what you base your hypothesis.

 

[Multicolored Lemur]

The hubris displayed by many of these experts in believing they know better than the people of the time and era is staggering.

This guy is maybe on “your” side, and my “side,” too.

He says, Often the older scientists never adopt the new views! Instead, they die off. Things change as younger scientists enter senior positions, and the whole thing later appears seamless. And the new theory often demands . . .

<<< drum roll, please! >>>

a leap of faith.

Because the new theory may have as many problems as the old one. But the old problems are so tired and have been looked at so many times that sometimes the feeling is that the new theory is more promising.

 

[Scooter]

Ok, what evidence does Mr. Kuhn offer that refutes the Biblical account of there being two separate miracles of feeding the multitudes? What new theory does he offer? What evidence from any expert suggests there wasn’t two miracles? Can you present any evidence, anything, other than your own unsupported assertion that there was only one miracle?

 

[Multicolored Lemur]

I understand grief hallucinations may be a real thing, but I can’t believe over 500 people at once imagined seeing a risen Jesus. Has there ever been a documented case where hundreds of people had the same hallucination at the same time? If not, I wonder upon what you base your hypothesis.

I think this actually works against the case for Christianity. It’s 1st Corinthians, chapter 15, toward the beginning.

And it’s sparse.

It says 500 persons, many of these brothers and sisters still living, and that’s all it says on the 500. And it also lists some other persons such as the 12 disciples who were supposed to have seen Jesus after Resurrection.

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• Please notice I use proper capitalization to show respect. I appreciate people who are light Christians, as well as light Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus, Jews, Sikhs, etc.

 

[Multicolored Lemur]

Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 15 - English Standard Version

The Resurrection of Christ - Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what...

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“ . . . 4 that he [ Jesus ] was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas [ Peter], then to the twelve. 6 Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. . . ”

— ESV

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If Paul had been enthused about the more than 500, he would have told us where he had heard about it.

Conclusion: Paul wasn’t enthused.

 

[Multicolored Lemur]

Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 15 - New International Version

The Resurrection of Christ - Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. For what...

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“ . . . 4 . . he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, . . ”

— NIV

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This is probably a good example of the NIV including both men and women.

 

[AgnosticBoy]

I find it amazing how early church fathers, who lived within one generation from the original writing, accept the authorship of Mark, but modern "scholars", two millennia removed, reject Mark as the author. The hubris displayed by many of these experts in believing they know better than the people of the time and era is staggering. This gospel was part of the original canon and was never in doubt by those early church leaders. Here's what it boils down to: Regardless of who penned the gospel, God is the Author.

It is possible for the early Church Fathers to have been wrong. What determines that is evidence. A scenario where we might know more later on is if more evidence is found later on that the Church Fathers weren't aware of.

Interestingly, I went through Christianity thinking that Mark was one of the Apostles. He wasn't. Turns out he was a follower of the Apostle Peter, and he also knew Paul.

Gospel According to Mark | Description, Authorship, & Facts

Gospel According to Mark, second of the four New Testament Gospels and, with Matthew and Luke, one of the three Synoptic Gospels. It is the shortest and the earliest of the four Gospels and is traditionally attributed to St. Mark, a disciple of St. Peter.

www.britannica.com