Featured Does secularism provide any objective moral systems? If not, is that a problem?

[Multicolored Lemur]

When I bring up moral ontology, I am referring to the way that morality exists (i.e. where does it come from, how does it exist, is it a human invention which would make a product of the mind, etc).

How about the concept of “emergent properties”?

The simple case would be a water molecular having properties contained by neither of the constituent atoms of oxygen and hydrogen. But then, the fact that I can close my eyes and visualize a place I used to live, and that whole inner experience.

and maybe even spiritual values as emergent properties ? ?

 

[2Dbunk1]

When I bring up moral ontology, I am referring to the way that morality exists (i.e. where does it come from, how does it exist, is it a human invention which would make a product of the mind, etc). Again, what I'm bringing up in this post deal with aspects of existence and not aspects of knowing.

Like I have said before, moral ontology is not innate -- not a given. As John Quincey Adams' biographer quoted him generally as saying: "We are not born with a moral code -- it has to be taught. And it is taught by the various schools, churches and synagogues round the country ..."

Whether objective ontology is something else, I could only guess. To me, existence and knowing are intertwined!

 

[2Dbunk1]

How about the concept of “emergent properties”?

The simple case would be a water molecular having properties contained by neither of the constituent atoms of oxygen and hydrogen. But then, the fact that I can close my eyes and visualize a place I used to live, and that whole inner experience.

and maybe even spiritual values as emergent properties ? ?

Imagination is a wonderful thing. You are free to conjure up whatever you want and say "prove me wrong."

 

[AgnosticBoy]

How about the concept of “emergent properties”?

The simple case would be a water molecular having properties contained by neither of the constituent atoms of oxygen and hydrogen. But then, the fact that I can close my eyes and visualize a place I used to live, and that whole inner experience.

and maybe even spiritual values as emergent properties ? ?

Ontology can also be applied to emergent properties. In fact it does so in the debate on consciousness, and whether it is physical or not.

 

[2Dbunk1]

Sorry ML, for my flippant response. I have googled 'emergent properties' and have found a host of articles about it -- very interesting!

And AB, I think that emergent properties, after studying what I have researched, ontology is more than likely supported by EM.

Thank you for lifting the cataracts from my eyes. But I wrestle with the concept of 'objective' ontology. Sure, ontology can be supported by any of a number of directional approaches -- the size of one's amygdalae being one. Studies have shown that the larger the amygdalae in an individual is the more 'politically conservative' that person is. the size of that gland may affect the notion of spirituality as well.

 

[Multicolored Lemur]

You are free to conjure up whatever you want and say "prove me wrong."

This older guy at college used to run this crap on me all the time! And looking back, I’m kind of embarrassed that I went along with it. But like I’m saying, he was older, and I admired his confidence and intellect.

For example, he’d say we should support even the gov’t of Guatemala for the sake of the Cold War. This was during the 1980s. It later came out that the Guatemalan military had killed 10,000s of indigenous persons supposed for “being communist,” but really just because indigenous communities were not crazy about participating in the civil patrol program.

There was in fact a communist-leaning rebel army, the Guatemalan military was in the area and wanted victory, and things happen. This is basically the “Men With Guns” thesis. That once either side visits a village, you’re in real trouble because the other side’s going to perceive you as a “sympathizer.” Yeah, you might give some food to the 1st army just to get rid of them, but that doesn’t mean you’re a sympathizer. The name “Men With Guns” comes from a John Sayles movie.

Anyway, the support of near-genocide in certain parts of Guatemala does indeed tarnish the legacy of President Reagan.

This same guy in college also said we should have test-exploded atomic bombs off the coast of Japan during WWII, so he was all across the board. Again, I’m embarrassed that I played his game and allowed him to “work” me and play me.

 

[Multicolored Lemur]

I think the argument from “Emergent Properties” is that something like syncopation is more discovered than invented.

It didn’t exist when the early Universe was just hydrogen and helium. But as complexity developed, and especially as creatures developed with ears and brains, yes, it did come into being, and in the real world.

I think!

 

[2Dbunk1]

and maybe even spiritual values as emergent properties ? ?

Yes, I believe spiritual values may be an example of emergent properties. Many people are dependent on their religious belief.

 

[Multicolored Lemur]

Yes, I believe spiritual values may be an example of emergent properties.

I can go as far as saying “the soul” might be an emergent property.

But even if we humans [many of us] go cyborg at some future date, and even if later on, some of us decide to leave our biologic components behind, I don’t think the “soul” will be immortal. It will still be based on the (?) nano tech which provide the fire/don’t fire components of its “nerve cells.” Or something like that! It will still have a physical base.

 

[AgnosticBoy]

I can go as far as saying “the soul” might be an emergent property.

But even if we humans [many of us] go cyborg at some future date, and even if later on, some of us decide to leave our biologic components behind, I don’t think the “soul” will be immortal. It will still be based on the (?) nano tech which provide the fire/don’t fire components of its “nerve cells.” Or something like that! It will still have a physical base.

I wonder how would a secular or religious moral system go about answering that. It's really unexplored territory.