Featured Could Issac really not tell his son Jacob was wearing goat skin ? ?

[Multicolored Lemur]

The thing about the Bible is its honesty.

regarding the Bible being transparent about the weaknesses and careless acts of even its heroes

Okay, if we’re going to discuss ethics, I’d like three things from modern Christian churches —

1) When a child is really sick, don’t tell the parents they aren’t praying right.

2) Get up to speed on best practice as far as preventing sexual abuse, and

3) Stop making teenagers feel guilty about something as normal and healthy as masturbation.

 

[Multicolored Lemur]

https://personal.lse.ac.uk/robert49/teaching/mm/articles/Smart_1956Utilitarianism.pdf

“Extreme and Restricted Utilitarianism,”
Australian philosopher J. J. C. Smart, 1956

‘ . . We already saw that it would be rational to praise Hitler's rescuer, even though it would have been most rational not to have rescued Hitler. In ordinary language, no doubt, “right” and “wrong” have not only the meaning “most rational to do” and “not most rational to do” but also have the meaning “praiseworthy” and “not praiseworthy.” Usually to the utility of an action corresponds utility of praise of it, but as we saw, this is not always so. . ‘

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Utilitarianism, or the Principle of Utility, is a B+ theory of ethics. Or … at the end of the day, maybe only a B- theory.

All kinds of “dilemmas” are advanced against the theory, most of them not very realistic. Some of them are realistic. Okay, it still might be the best theory we have.

How can someone who doesn’t believe in a religion possibly be ethical ? ! ?

Well, actually it’s pretty easy. Slightly religious people are often highly ethical. It’s the super religious people I’m worried about because they tie themselves into knots.

And people who openly call themselves atheist? Well, I don’t do it in real life as often as I do it in the Internet. And I probably have an urge to be overly honest and “too much information” maybe a little bit like a super religious person tying themselves in a knot!

In any case, the above answers the frequent question.

 

[Scooter]

Okay, if we’re going to discuss ethics, I’d like three things from modern Christian churches —

1) When a child is really sick, don’t tell the parents they aren’t praying right.

2) Get up to speed on best practice as far as preventing sexual abuse, and

3) Stop making teenagers feel guilty about something as normal and healthy as masturbation.

There are several problems with your requests. First, the issues you listed are not church problems. They are individual issues. Never have I witnessed a church officially tell parents they were not praying correctly for their children. Churches do not do studies on sexual abuse or teenage masturbation. Individuals within church setting may be involved in these things, but to group “Churches” into this category is unfair. That would be like me saying all nonbelievers are serial killers just because Ted Bundy of Jeffery Dalmer were.

Another problem you have is that as an outsider, you really have no say as to what churches need to be doing. If you believe there needs to be changes within churches, you would need to join a church in order to effect any change. Standing on the sidelines yelling at players doesn’t help them win. If you can help a team win, you need to suit up and get in the game yourself. This is just my 2 cents worth.

 

[Multicolored Lemur]

Such details would be embarrassing in that time since women weren't considered credible witnesses.

Might there be an evolutionary process?

For example, the better Gospels and better letters contain “flaws” and human texture, and therefore those are the ones included in the Bible. And more broadly, Christianity is more appealing than other religions at the time for the same and similar reasons.

As an analogy, a “flawed” movie is often better than a “perfect” and streamlined movie. It’s a tricky thing, because it has to be the “right” types of flaws.

 

[Multicolored Lemur]

the story of women being the first witnesses to the empty tomb

And the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John disagree on the details — which women, before or after dawn, how many angels, whether the stone is already rolled away.

And to me, the best argument of the fundamentalist is, Well, they had just be told that their savior Jesus had risen from the dead, cut them some slack for not counting the number of angels! I mean, for crying out loud! And … fair enough. But notice we are taking the Bible as pretty inexact.

Do Christians take other parts as just as inexact?

And in many cases, Yes.

Most Christians are what fundies might call “casual” Christians, but the faith of these Christians is just as heartfelt as that of “casual” Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, Shintos, and Pagans.

To most Christians, the central core is from the Lord’s Prayer — “ . . forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. . ” It’s doesn’t mean , continue to be a doormat. It means draw one or two key lessons to better protect yourself and family. But try not to hold a grudge in frozen anger.

Most Christians do not get all worried about Nicodemos. Although they might enjoy a sermon of “the road to Emmaus” from Luke.

The fundies get all mis-focused, in a way like what Catholics call scrupulosity.

 

[Multicolored Lemur]

Another problem you have is that as an outsider, you really have no say as to what churches need to be doing. If you believe there needs to be changes within churches, you would need to join a church in order to effect any change. Standing on the sidelines yelling at players doesn’t help them win. If you can help a team win, you need to suit up and get in the game yourself. This is just my 2 cents worth.

Okay, I like having you here. One, you’re a reasonable guy to talk with. Two, I don’t have to guess at the fundamentalist position. You’re right there to illustrate it.

All the same, at the end of the day, if you’re participating in an agnostic forum to sharpen your apologetics and/or win people over for Christ, yes, you’re going to get some pushback.

In addition, I’m a former Christian. I’m pretty familiar with [ some branches of] the Christian faith.

 

[Multicolored Lemur]

First, the issues you listed are not church problems. They are individual issues.

U.S. Southern Baptists release scathing report on sexual abuse

Reuters,

May 2022 —

“ . . complaints of sex abuse by pastors and staff in the largest U.S. Protestant denomination, the Southern Baptist Convention, were either ignored or covered up by top clergy, according to an internal report released on Sunday.

“The nearly 300-page report details how complaints were kept as "closely guarded information" within the Convention to avoid liability, . . “

====•==••=====

Not just individual problems.

 

[Scooter]

complaints of sex abuse by pastors and staff in the largest U.S. Protestant denomination, the Southern Baptist Convention, were either ignored or covered up by top clergy, according to an internal report released on Sunday.

According to the report, sex abuse was committed by “pastors and staff”. Sex abuse was not committed by churches. Cover up was committed by “top clergy”, not churches. It is individuals who are guilty of these crimes. Not churches. The Southern Baptist Convention is a collection of like minded churches but it is not a governing body. The SBC can withdraw fellowship from church congregations that go against its statement of faith, but that is all the SBC can do as far as disciplinary action against a church. If a pastor of a SB church commits any crime, the SBC has no authority to fire that pastor. So my position is sound in that sex abuse is not a church problem, it is an individual problem.

 

[Scooter]

Okay, I like having you here. One, you’re a reasonable guy to talk with. Two, I don’t have to guess at the fundamentalist position. You’re right there to illustrate it.

All the same, at the end of the day, if you’re participating in an agnostic forum to sharpen your apologetics and/or win people over for Christ, yes, you’re going to get some pushback.

Thank you. I don’t mind pushback at all. I’m used to it.

 

[AgnosticBoy]

And the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John disagree on the details — which women, before or after dawn, how many angels, whether the stone is already rolled away.

And to me, the best argument of the fundamentalist is, Well, they had just be told that their savior Jesus had risen from the dead, cut them some slack for not counting the number of angels! I mean, for crying out loud! And … fair enough. But notice we are taking the Bible as pretty inexact.

I can grant you that point, but I don't really need to get into those discrepancies. It would complicate things.

I see it as being clear enough just from the story of Isaac that the biblical writers tended to include the good, the bad, and the ugly details. We both agree that Isaac did something dumb and that it would cause conflict. Isaac's careless actions were included despite him being one of the great figures in the Bible.