Is God okay with rape?

[AgnosticBoy]

Several areas in the Bible talks about rape. Take this passage for instance, Deuteronomy 22:28-29:

28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay her father fifty shekels[c] of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.

Many would say that this rule condones rape. Rape is clearly harmful to women so why would an all-good god ever allow it?

Let's debate that.

 

[Multicolored Lemur]

Yes, sadly

 

[Multicolored Lemur]

This Old Testament passage doesn’t even think about the situation in terms of respect for a person.

It’s more like a property right of the father which has been wronged. And the assailant makes it right by going ahead and marrying her.

But imagine the depressive trap for the woman, of being forced to marry the rapist. And she might ask herself, And this is my marriage? ! ? [which I have looked forward to so many times]

 

[Multicolored Lemur]

The Bible [and especially the Old Testament] is ancient literature like Homer or Shakespeare, and that is that.

[my view, not everyone agrees]

 

[Multicolored Lemur]

And as far as ethics . . . It seems like most religions have developed one or more versions of the Golden Rule.

Plus, we have medical ethics. Plus, we have the whole modern project of trying to nurture a growing economy and build up a middle class, so that the resources for a worthwhile life will be available for the many, not just the few.

Whether or not we theoretically “should” be able to come up with ethics without religion, in practical terms we seem able to do so. And often pretty good codes of ethics at that.

 

[AgnosticBoy]

This Old Testament passage doesn’t even think about the situation in terms of respect for a person.

It’s more like a property right of the father which has been wronged. And the assailant makes it right by going ahead and marrying her.

But imagine the depressive trap for the woman, of being forced to marry the rapist. And she might ask herself, And this is my marriage? ! ? [which I have looked forward to so many times]

Here's a rare woman's perspective of being with her rapist (Amnon rapes his sister, Tamar - 2 Samuel chapter 13):

10 Then Amnon said to Tamar, “Bring the food here into my bedroom so I may eat from your hand.” And Tamar took the bread she had prepared and brought it to her brother Amnon in his bedroom. 11 But when she took it to him to eat, he grabbed her and said, “Come to bed with me, my sister.”

12 “No, my brother!” she said to him. “Don’t force me! Such a thing should not be done in Israel! Don’t do this wicked thing.

Obviously she doesn't want to be raped. But even more troubling, is her reaction to her rapist deciding to let her go, which I thought would've been the best thing that could happen to her (but apparently not):

15 Then Amnon hated her with intense hatred. In fact, he hated her more than he had loved her. Amnon said to her, “Get up and get out!”

16 “No!” she said to him. “Sending me away would be a greater wrong than what you have already done to me.”

[emphasis added]

The easy answer to this woman's reaction is that she is brainwashed and doesn't value herself at all. But the little research that I've done about women in biblical times shows that there was little to no economic involvement for women. Women back then were dependent on men to make a living, just as kids are dependent on their parents. So to the woman raped in the above story, it seems that she thought that her rapist leaving her would result in her having to fend for herself and presumably the kids resulting from such an affair (no other person would want a women who slept with another man?).

I still see a problem here in that there's no good choice. On the one hand rape is bad, but on the other hand, it's bad for a women back then to not have any means of support.

 

[bbyrd009]

Here's a rare woman's perspective of being with her rapist (Amnon rapes his sister, Tamar - 2 Samuel chapter 13):

i know this might sound strange, but “Tamar” might possibly be an analogy for a Free Market, evinced by “coat of many colors.” ill dig up the discussion and post it

Obviously she doesn't want to be raped. But even more troubling, is her reaction to her rapist deciding to let her go, which I thought would've been the best thing that could happen to her (but apparently not):

[emphasis added]

The easy answer to this woman's reaction is that she is brainwashed and doesn't value herself at all. But the little research that I've done about women in biblical times shows that there was little to no economic involvement for women. Women back then were dependent on men to make a living, just as kids are dependent on their parents. So to the woman raped in the above story, it seems that she thought that her rapist leaving her would result in her having to fend for herself and presumably the kids resulting from such an affair (no other person would want a women who slept with another man?).

I still see a problem here in that there's no good choice. On the one hand rape is bad, but on the other hand, it's bad for a women back then to not have any means of support.

fwiw the Bible recommends death for rapists elsewhere, NT i guess? ill dig that one up too; i guess its in the op passage also,
23If there is a virgin pledged in marriage to a man, and another man encounters her in the city and sleeps with her, 24you must take both of them out to the gate of that city and stone them to death—the young woman because she did not cry out in the city, and the man because he has violated his neighbor’s wife. So you must purge the evil from among you.

25But if the man encounters a betrothed woman in the open country, and he overpowers her and lies with her, only the man who has done this must die

so, kinda weird, but there is a “kill the rapist” elsewhere too i think

 

[Multicolored Lemur]

the little research that I've done about women in biblical times shows that there was little to no economic involvement for women. Women back then were dependent on men to make a living,

I remember one study in the United States found that if a woman had a job, she was more likely to leave a situation of domestic violence.

* the baseline is that people stay

even though the violence tends to repeat and even though it tends to gets worse over time

* I think it helps if the woman has a sister who keeps on being her friend, who maybe every so often reminds her of a good option she has, but who isn’t judgmental.

 

[AgnosticBoy]

i know this might sound strange, but “Tamar” might possibly be an analogy for a Free Market, evinced by “coat of many colors.” ill dig up the discussion and post it

I'm not sold on that. Let me know if you're able to find a source for any non-literal reading of that passage. Either way, I do think that the passage reflects how a woman with little to no economic options would think. Thank God we've moved on from that!

fwiw the Bible recommends death for rapists elsewhere, NT i guess? ill dig that one up too; i guess its in the op passage also,
23If there is a virgin pledged in marriage to a man, and another man encounters her in the city and sleeps with her, 24you must take both of them out to the gate of that city and stone them to death—the young woman because she did not cry out in the city, and the man because he has violated his neighbor’s wife. So you must purge the evil from among you.

25But if the man encounters a betrothed woman in the open country, and he overpowers her and lies with her, only the man who has done this must die

so, kinda weird, but there is a “kill the rapist” elsewhere too i think

Well it seems that it is based on if the woman is already someone's property. If she's not anyone's property (i.e. not married or engaged), then the property (the single woman) is open for the taking so-to-speak.

 

[Multicolored Lemur]

so, kinda weird, but there is a “kill the rapist” elsewhere too i think

Maybe if it was, beat up the rapist [because it’s more do-able]

I once had a story idea of someone sexually abusing a New Jersey’s mobster’s granddaughter [bad move!]. But she might be even more afraid to tell than normal, because she pretty much knows that he’s going to get killed.

On the other hand, if he’s merely going to get beat up, then telling is not such an impossible mountain to climb.

//////////////////////////////

Okay, on topic of attempted rape . . .

A lot of people would say, if my friend did something like sexually mess with his step daughter, I’d beat the living crap out of him, even my friend, especially my friend.

I say, how about beforehand and maybe prevent the sexual abuse?

If the friend is talking about the step daughter in sexualized terms, maybe just directly ask, “Are you planning to do something?”

And maybe even a follow-up question, “If you do mess with her, do I 100% have your permission to kick your butt in first-rate style? I mean, just to get that on the record and all.”

And if this escalates to a fist fight right then and there, might not be the worse thing in the world.