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William

Novice Mystic
Jun 9, 2021
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Te Waipounamu
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Worldview

We Exist Within A Creation [WEWAC]

The agnostic is not just interested in whether there is a way to know we are created or not, but if any God(s) exist.

That is the difference between agnostics and Liminalists.

Limimalists are not interested in addressing the second question until the first question has been answered.
There are a few religions with no deities, and others with God deities that are not creators
People who don't believe that there is a creator and don't believe we exist within a creation, are not 'theists'.
 
Jul 12, 2022
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That is the difference between agnostics and Liminalists.

Limimalists are not interested in addressing the second question until the first question has been answered.

People who don't believe that there is a creator and don't believe we exist within a creation, are not 'theists'.

Wesleyan Methodists believe in evolution, an old Universe/Earth, even though they do believe in creation.I know theist ministers who do not believe in creation.

Pantheists do not believe in a creator, and yet, atheists tend to put them in the same category as theists or "sexy atheism," as Dawkins claimed.

.
 

William

Novice Mystic
Jun 9, 2021
511
58
60
Te Waipounamu
jig.nz
Worldview

We Exist Within A Creation [WEWAC]

Wesleyan Methodists believe in evolution, an old Universe/Earth, even though they do believe in creation.I know theist ministers who do not believe in creation.

Pantheists do not believe in a creator, and yet, atheists tend to put them in the same category as theists or "sexy atheism," as Dawkins claimed.

.
It doesn't matter to a Liminist what Wesleyan Methodists believe...Liminists understand Theism as

"belief in the existence of a god or gods, specifically of a creator who intervenes in the universe."


If, Pantheists do not believe in a creator then they are not theists.
 
Sorry fellas. Some of the points offered here could be looked at as a way to avoid atheism at all costs. If I don't tell you that then an atheist surely would. None of the points here avoids weak atheism or lack of belief so any position you could offer on the God question would fall into theism or weak atheism at some point. The only exception is if you KNOW God doesn't exist or that he does. Only knowledge precludes belief and that would even cover the point about lack of belief. You could also say that "maybe" God exist and maybe he doesn't.

Simply avoiding the question of if God exists, in place of another question, existing in creation, is not convincing enough for me. One doesn't make the other unnecessary or moot, unless you know the answers to both. And I've read through this thread at least twice.
 
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William

Novice Mystic
Jun 9, 2021
511
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60
Te Waipounamu
jig.nz
Worldview

We Exist Within A Creation [WEWAC]

It doesn't matter as atheism is a direct reaction against theism. Theism concerns itself with the question of GOD as primary whereas the question of creation is the actual primary.

Therefore, your concerns only matter to an agnostic, but not to a Liminalist. "Avoiding atheism" under the circumstances is acceptable, due to its reactionary position to theism - and theism being a false position in the first place, and so worth avoiding as well.
 
Jul 12, 2022
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It doesn't matter to a Liminist what Wesleyan Methodists believe...Liminists understand Theism as

"belief in the existence of a god or gods, specifically of a creator who intervenes in the universe."


If, Pantheists do not believe in a creator then they are not theists.
I think liminist is an improper term. Of course it matters what Methodists believe to agnostics anyways.
 
So we have perplexedzeromass who is unwilling to drop the agnostic label.

William seems ready to drop the agnostic label in favor of something else.

I'm unwilling to drop the agnostic label. One reason is that I am too much in favor of what Huxley had to say about agnosticism. For me to accept his explanations and apply it in debates and in searching for truth, and then throw another label on it would almost feel like I'm not giving him his credit. If it takes a lifetime trying to convince atheists that I won't identify as an "agnostic atheist" then so be it. I presume others will follow, although I would say that others (non-atheists) tend to perceive agnostics more positively than atheists. That's a start!
 
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Jul 12, 2022
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So we have perpsecedzeromass who is unwilling to drop the agnostic label.

William seems ready to drop the agnostic label in favor of something else.

I'm unwilling to drop the agnostic label. One reason I have not brought up is that I am too much in favor of what Huxley had to say about agnosticism. For me to accept his explanations and apply it in debates and in searching for truth, but yet throw another label on it, would almost feel like I'm not giving him his credit. If it takes a lifetime trying to convince atheists that I won't identify as an "agnostic atheist" then so be it. I presume others will follow, although I would say that others (non-atheists) tend to perceive agnostics more positively than atheists, so that's a start!
Good points. Also besides Huxley there are other developers of agnostic thought who demonstrate its own identity. I'll link to them soon
 

William

Novice Mystic
Jun 9, 2021
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Te Waipounamu
jig.nz
Worldview

We Exist Within A Creation [WEWAC]

GM: https://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1081586#p1081586

William: From the link;
Re: Machines and morality:
William: If mathematics cannot describe a system of "True Free Will" this may be because such a system does not actually exist?


Inquirer: Yes that could be the case except for the fact that I know I have free will, as I said it is a self evident truth. So my free will cannot be computed mathematically (because it must be non-deterministic) it is not computable.

William: As an Agnostic my position re The Question "Does True Free Will Exist?" is "Lack of any current information to establish certainty"

Also, the focus is on the The Question, so am I to assume your claim of having free will corresponds with your belief that TRUE free will exists, and that you consider no difference between your 'free will' and what you previously referred to as "true free will"?

From the Agnostic position;
I accept that your belief that a person has will, as valid.
I remain undecided in relation to your belief that will is free, as it appears that will is only free, relative to the environment which constrains said will.
In that, I can accept the term 'free will' but not the term 'true free will'.

William: Since writing that, I have come to the conclusion that my position isn't Agnosticism, because that is too limiting [limited to the question of GOD existing] - Currently I refer to my position as "Liminalism" and so would exchange the word 'agnostic' used in the quote to that of 'Liminalist'.
GM: The Bridge of Forgiveness

William: From the link;
Historical antecedents of modern agnosticism

William: It is apparent that Huxley's agnosticism is unable to fit into all spheres equally...
{SOURCE}
 
Jul 12, 2022
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GM: https://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1081586#p1081586

William: From the link;
Re: Machines and morality:


William: Since writing that, I have come to the conclusion that my position isn't Agnosticism, because that is too limiting [limited to the question of GOD existing] - Currently I refer to my position as "Liminalism" and so would exchange the word 'agnostic' used in the quote to that of 'Liminalist'.
GM: The Bridge of Forgiveness

William: From the link;
Historical antecedents of modern agnosticism

William: It is apparent that Huxley's agnosticism is unable to fit into all spheres equally...
{SOURCE}
It does not need to fit equally.
 
Currently I refer to my position as "Liminalism" and so would exchange the word 'agnostic' used in the quote to that of 'Liminalist'.
You won't get any debate from me in terms of you not wanting to stick with the agnostic label. The only recommendation I can offer is flesh out some of the philosophy behind your new position and how it can be applied to different issues. Perhaps then the label will catch on.
 
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William

Novice Mystic
Jun 9, 2021
511
58
60
Te Waipounamu
jig.nz
Worldview

We Exist Within A Creation [WEWAC]

I am not interested in the label catching on. I was interested in pinpointing my actual position, thought that it was agnostic [mainly because there were no other positions and that was closest to were I am at] found out it wasn't really where I am at, and eventually was pointed to Liminalism through my interactions re GM.

Liminalism fits better in any given situation where ignorance and knowledge require balance...not just in relation to questions of theistic nature.

Also - I don't have to waste effort arguing with theists and atheists as to where my position sits in relation to theirs
 
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