Featured The Brain as a Medium for Consciousness

[AgnosticBoy]

If the destination is truth or reality, then I want stay around what's known and not go to far off into theory. This is why I don't disagree with your view entirely. I only disagree or don't accept those parts that involve more philosophy or theory than evidence.

Do you think that will change before now and your bodies eventual death?

I don't know. Of course, I will always be looking for answers. But even more important than that, I will continue pushing for the best conditions that would allow for any type of theory to be explored as opposed to what we have now w/ certain topics being taboo or dismissed a priori. These conditions have held science back, and humanity overall.

I think through the long history of science, how the Catholic Church held back human knowledge, and how now materialist/anti-supernatural narrative has done the same.

It is a sure thing that some reports will be false - made up to gain exposure and $.

That is itself is here nor there re whether NDEs are real experiences.

It seems then we disagree about the reality of hallucinations. I see them as unreal but you see it otherwise.

 

[William]

If the destination is truth or reality, then I want stay around what's known and not go to far off into theory. This is why I don't disagree with your view entirely. I only disagree or don't accept those parts that involve more philosophy or theory than evidence.

Do you think that will change before now and your bodies eventual death?

I don't know. Of course, I will always be looking for answers. But even more important than that, I will continue pushing for the best conditions that would allow for any type of theory to be explored as opposed to what we have now w/ certain topics being taboo or dismissed a priori. These conditions have held science back, and humanity overall.

I think through the long history of science, how the Catholic Church held back human knowledge, and how now materialist/anti-supernatural narrative has done the same.

For me, supernaturalism is a spurious explanation and superfluous for that. Removing its relevance does not in and of itself remove the question or possible answers to said question "do we exist within a created thing?" any more than accepting everything including mind is fundamentally material in nature.
And as I have said, things don't change re that, even if we flip it to "everything is fundamentally immaterial in nature".
Rather, I have always maintained that separating creator from creation is dangerous* - in the sense that the deul imagery cannot be bridged if supernaturalism remains accepted alternate, because that separation is due to the supernatural side separating itself from the natural.
(Which is what it does within every mind which chooses to see things that particular way.)
*William wrote: ↑Tue Feb 21, 2017 4:27 pm

INDEX

Separating any idea of GOD from All other Consciousness.




My death question pertains to the idea that after our body has ceased to live and one finds oneself still very much "alive" one can and does build imagery re that (according to many related sources re "alternate experience" - which will be exactly what it is...

The danger therein is that one brings their pre-packaged beliefs with them and so continues along that path, always thinking that what they are experiencing is something created FOR them rather than BY them.

It is a sure thing that some reports will be false - made up to gain exposure and $.

That is itself is here nor there re whether NDEs are real experiences.

It seems then we disagree about the reality of hallucinations. I see them as unreal but you see it otherwise.

Yes we do. If your opinion on NDEs is that these are most likely hallucinations, then my death question would also have it that you will think of your next experience as being an "hallucination" and there are reports of "hospitals" on that "other side" which cater for the needs of those not handling the transition very well.

In the olden days, the problem was even more severe because most human thought back in the day were dark and hellish, which again - was brought into the next level experience (yes re "death") and instantly manifested as "real" for those making it so without even knowing that was what was happening.

For the most part, "hell" has been replaced with hospitals, thanks in large to modern human personalities being less superstitious when they roll over re death.

The whole level of collective mindfulness is a vast field...but no - it is not "supernatural" - it is just another physical reality experience with less constraints and way more abundant in active life forms and possibilities...

 

[AgnosticBoy]

For me, supernaturalism is a spurious explanation and superfluous for that.

I should say the biggest issue for me is not the label, whether it is supernatural or not.
Just as long as the things that are commonly put under the supernatural label, like OBEs, spirits, miracles, psychics, aren't ignored then I'm okay with whichever label you attach to it.

The danger therein is that one brings their pre-packaged beliefs with them and so continues along that path, always thinking that what they are experiencing is something created FOR them rather than BY them.

I'd like to think that we can progress even after death. If gurus like Jesus were exceptionally wise and enlightening, I would think one big reason is because they have had many past lives, and are at a higher level of progression compared to other humans.

Yes we do. If your opinion on NDEs is that these are most likely hallucinations, then my death question would also have it that you will think of your next experience as being an "hallucination" and there are reports of "hospitals" on that "other side" which cater for the needs of those not handling the transition very well.

My view is that we shouldn't automatically assume that all NDEs are real. I believe that some of them can be just hallucinations, and others we don't know either way, and then there are those that are genuine.

In the olden days, the problem was even more severe because most human thought back in the day were dark and hellish, which again - was brought into the next level experience (yes re "death") and instantly manifested as "real" for those making it so without even knowing that was what was happening.

For the most part, "hell" has been replaced with hospitals, thanks in large to modern human personalities being less superstitious when they roll over re death.

 

[William]

For me, supernaturalism is a spurious explanation and superfluous for that.

I should say the biggest issue for me is not the label, whether it is supernatural or not.
Just as long as the things that are commonly put under the supernatural label, like OBEs, spirits, miracles, psychics, aren't ignored then I'm okay with whichever label you attach to it.

Well it's a start and a good one at that. The labels are telling in their own right, so do have an effect on the output of our reasoning.
Doing without the labels is a good temporary move so that at least we are identifying agreement re those unusual things which persist in an otherwise physical environment.

Perhaps my latest Substack post might shine even better light on that...

The Ghost is not beyond nature—it is nature, aware of itself.​

The danger therein is that one brings their pre-packaged beliefs with them and so continues along that path, always thinking that what they are experiencing is something created FOR them rather than BY them.

I'd like to think that we can progress even after death. If gurus like Jesus were exceptionally wise and enlightening, I would think one big reason is because they have had many past lives, and are at a higher level of progression compared to other humans.

However it presents - yes one could argue a case that Jesus has had many past lives but how to reconcile that with his witness that "before the universe" he existed?
Re what I am saying here, Jesus and other like him injected ideas into the human reality which directly had an affect on how things unfold in the next reality human personalities experience.
Reincarnation may have its uses, but generally people are not reporting being sent into another life on earth situation, but dealing with their new situation, based upon their beliefs.
Also to note, Jesus makes a point of mentioning hell and demons et al - but also delivers a means of moving away from such beliefs...essentially within his message is the idea he speaks of hellish things as something real which can be experienced in that next reality, but also gives a means for humans changing their beliefs to suit better alternative, thus changing how things unfold collectively in that next reality.

Yes we do. If your opinion on NDEs is that these are most likely hallucinations, then my death question would also have it that you will think of your next experience as being an "hallucination" and there are reports of "hospitals" on that "other side" which cater for the needs of those not handling the transition very well.

My view is that we shouldn't automatically assume that all NDEs are real. I believe that some of them can be just hallucinations, and others we don't know either way, and then there are those that are genuine.

I know. and what I am arguing is that we should not throw babies out with bathwater.
Even one genuine would suffice.
Atop that, for me, ny own OOBEs which, while not venturing into these places reported by NDEs (Tunnels, sentient loving lightsource et al) my OOBEs were all localized as in I left the body and floated out through the roof and out toward the night sky. The night sky was different in that it contained way more stars than what we normally can see, but the experience nonetheless added subjective evidence which allows me to regard NDE reports as more genuine than not. Also, my subjective experience is not something I consider to be hallucination, even that these presented an alternate reality.

 

[AgnosticBoy]

Even one genuine would suffice.

Re NDEs...

Yes, I agree with your statement. We already have one objectively verified and corroborated case that I'm aware of, and that's the case of Pam Reynolds.

For anyone interested in a debate on the Pam Reynold's case, you can read starting at this post:

Mental imagery as non-physical perception pt. 2 - Page 7 - Debating Christianity and Religion

debatingchristianity.com

This was between myself and an atheist member. William also contributed.

Atop that, for me, ny own OOBEs which, while not venturing into these places reported by NDEs (Tunnels, sentient loving lightsource et al) my OOBEs were all localized as in I left the body and floated out through the roof and out toward the night sky. The night sky was different in that it contained way more stars than what we normally can see, but the experience nonetheless added subjective evidence which allows me to regard NDE reports as more genuine than not. Also, my subjective experience is not something I consider to be hallucination, even that these presented an alternate reality.

That is a very cool experience! I've been trying to have one for over a decade.

Btw, this is one area that needs to be worked on by scientists and non-scientists a lot. We should find a way to have these experiences nearly at will, make a science out of it. I've heard of several OBErs writing books on the subject but without an organized and collective effort, this information may not get out as much or will just be put off as fringe.

 

[William]

Atop that, for me, ny own OOBEs which, while not venturing into these places reported by NDEs (Tunnels, sentient loving lightsource et al) my OOBEs were all localized as in I left the body and floated out through the roof and out toward the night sky. The night sky was different in that it contained way more stars than what we normally can see, but the experience nonetheless added subjective evidence which allows me to regard NDE reports as more genuine than not. Also, my subjective experience is not something I consider to be hallucination, even that these presented an alternate reality.

That is a very cool experience! I've been trying to have one for over a decade.

It happened after years of learning how to control my fear. Different strokes for different folks. If you have ever experienced sleep paralysis then you have at least experienced an initial step which leads to OOBE.

 

[AgnosticBoy]

If you have ever experienced sleep paralysis then you have at least experienced an initial step which leads to OOBE

Interesting. Would be good if you can have one that's long enough so that you can experiment. Used to listen to a radio show called Coast To Coast Am that always had guest on that I talked about obes, travelling to the astral plane, and even yanking people out of their body. All fascinating stuff.

 

[William]

If you have ever experienced sleep paralysis then you have at least experienced an initial step which leads to OOBE

Interesting.

Very...and not something in my experience, the Christian religion has any particular solid view on...

Would be good if you can have one that's long enough so that you can experiment.

Some do. A forum I used to frequent (as part of my studies into these) was Astral Pulse

It is through this forum that I was introduced to The Frank Kepple Resource

Used to listen to a radio show called Coast To Coast Am that always had guest on that I talked about obes, travelling to the astral plane, and even yanking people out of their body. All fascinating stuff.

Indeed. Talking about "yanking people out of their body" that was literally my very first conscious OOBE...

 

[William]

Consciousness Without Supernaturalism