Featured Pam Reynolds near death experience: Real or hallucination?

[AgnosticBoy]

Here is a near-death experience (nde) that is often cited by skeptics and proponents alike:

In 1991, Ms. Reynolds Lowery was diagnosed with an aneurysm at the base of her brain. Informed that it was inoperable, she chose to try a novel procedure developed by Dr. Robert Spetzler, chief of neurosurgery at Barrow Neurological Institute in Phoenix. To prevent a rupture of the aneurysm during surgery, her body temperature was lowered to 60 degrees Fahrenheit, and blood was drained from her brain. Her heart was stopped, and brain activity ceased. Clinically, she was dead.

Afterward, Ms. Reynolds Lowery was able to describe the procedure in minute detail -- including the little dent in the device the surgeon used to open her skull -- even though her eyes were covered with surgical pads and plugs were inserted in her ears.

Source: https://www.ajc.com/news/local/pam-...or-near-death-episode/0pAo5DxNyyVmF09WAmN4vN/

In a 1999 Atlanta Journal-Constitution article, she described her out-of-body episode:

"I came up out of my body. I realized it was my body, but I felt less attached to it than to some cars I've had to get rid of." At one point, she said, she felt she was looking over her surgeon's shoulder.

She said she saw and heard things more clearly and distinctly than ever before. She sensed a presence -- a light at the end of a vortex -- pulling her away. She heard -- or, more precisely, sensed -- her grandmother calling. "She passed away when I was 19," Ms. Reynolds Lowery said. "I saw behind her uncles, aunts, cousins, a good friend of mine who was murdered young, a distant cousin I didn't know had passed."

As the surgery ended, she was resuscitated, and her heart began beating again. At the same time, Ms. Reynolds Lowery's conversation with her grandmother and other deceased relatives and friends drew to a close. "I wanted to go into the light," she said, "but they stopped me. They communicated that if I continued to go into the light, I would change and would not be able to get back into my body."

The experience had a profound effect on her. She told the AJC she became more idealistic and less judgmental. Once a colorful dresser, she chose more subdued clothing. A self-described liberal Christian, she said she did not pretend to know the nature of God, "but I know for a fact that God exists and permeates everything."

Source: same as above

I believe that near-death experiences are real, and I think Pam Reynolds case is evidence of that. She was being closely monitored by healthcare staff, and not having brain activity seems pretty clear cut that experiences would not be possible. Yet, she had an experience.

For Debate
Why isn't this case accepted as proof of consciousness persisting without brain activity? Are there any skeptical explanations that would explain this experience as not real?

 

[Data]

I can't speak for those who determine whether or not to "accept" the case, but I would imagine that it was due to it being anecdotal. The appearance of previously deceased relatives is similar to my own experience which from my later Biblical studies would indicate to me that to her the experience may have seemed real, but it was actually demonic influence.

 

[AgnosticBoy]

I can't speak for those who determine whether or not to "accept" the case, but I would imagine that it was due to it being anecdotal. The appearance of previously deceased relatives is similar to my own experience which from my later Biblical studies would indicate to me that to her the experience may have seemed real, but it was actually demonic influence.

I like Pam Reynold's case because she was under close medical monitoring and in a very controlled setting as was required for her procedure.

Pam Reynolds underwent an extreme surgical
procedure known as 'hypothermic cardiac arrest', to remove a very large
basilar artery aneurysm. During the operation the blood was drained from
her head, she had no blood pressure, breathing, heartbeat or brainwaves[3]
and she was arguably as close to clinical death as possible. After surgery
the patient recounted her NDE in which she described seeing and hearing
the bone saw that Dr Spetzler used to open up her skull, and recalled a
specific comment by the female cardiologist, who later verified its
accuracy.

Source: BMJ (British Medical Journal)

There are some aspects of the NDE that aren't objectively observable, but there are some that can be verified, as well. Some might question her case, or just come up with explanations, but what I would press medical and scientific researchers to do is to find ways to evaluate these experiences even more, as opposed to just commenting on them from the sidelines.

 

[Data]

I like Pam Reynold's case because she was under close medical monitoring and in a very controlled setting as was required for her procedure.

It is interesting in that it doesn't seem to present the subject with the usual "Jesus warm glow" hallucinations from what little I recall of reading about here specific case. I know I've been operated on and I could hear them and feel them. Due to my sleep apnea they have to take it easy on the anesthesia. But there are different levels of that as well, for example, stuff where you are completely conscious, you just don't remember. I've had that as well. So, if I were going to document that case, I would be more interested in that than anything else she said. Even a dream can be real. Or what she said could be a well-researched and rehearsed lie.

There are some aspects of the NDE that aren't objectively observable, but there are some that can be verified, as well. Some might question her case, or just come up with explanations, but what I would press medical and scientific researchers to do is to find ways to evaluate these experiences even more, as opposed to just commenting on them from the sidelines.

The problem I have with most NDEs comes from the Bible. The Bible says that when you die, that's it. You're worm food. There isn't any part of you that remains other than rotting flesh and bones. So, for example, when I had my experience of seeing a relative who, at the time, no one knew had passed away, waving at me and then walking away to another apparition of her long dead husband, then both waking into a foggy distance until they disappeared, I didn't understand at that time (being only about 16 years old and knowing nothing about the Bible) that that was demonic.

 

[Multicolored Lemur]

https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=104397005

Pam Reynolds

‘ . . . She says she could see 20 people around the table and hear what sounded like a dentist's drill. She looked at the instrument in the surgeon's hand.

‘"It was an odd-looking thing," she says. "It looked like the handle on my electric toothbrush." . . . ’

.

.

‘ . . . "I heard a female voice say, 'Her arteries are too small.' And Dr. Spetzler — I think it was him — said, 'Use the other side,' " Reynolds says. . . ’

.

.

‘ . . She says as they looked down on her body, she could hear the Eagles' song "Hotel California" playing in the operating room as the doctors restarted her heart. . . ’

***************

I embrace the tension. I mean, even as someone generally on the skeptical side.

 

[Multicolored Lemur]

I’m going to draw an analogy with “cold reading by psychic.” Now, this is often where someone is trying to trick you.

But I think even when someone is not trying to trick you, The human mind is going to latch on and make a really big deal out of coincidences [and maybe not even hardly notice the things Pam is wrong about]

 

[Data]

I’m going to draw an analogy with “cold reading by psychic.” Now, this is often where someone is trying to trick you.

But I think even when someone is not trying to trick you, The human mind is going to latch on and make a really big dig out of coincidences [and maybe not even hardly notice the things Pam is wrong about]

Yeah. Most NDEs are culturally influenced dreams, IMO. But the details given in Pam's case, if they were truly experienced by her, could have been demonic. The apostle Paul uses the Greek term pharmakia (English pharmaceutical, pharmacy, et cetera) at Galatians 5:20. It's translated as spiritism or witchcraft. sorcery, even drug use. The reason is that drugs were, and still are, used by primitive people to gain access to the "spirit world." That's a demonic influence. Surgery often involved in NDEs is an obvious danger, spiritually, to believers due to the possibility of demonic influence.

To the atheist with their rejection of the supernatural that's just as seemingly crazy as any other "logical" explanation, I realize, but logic is fallible.

I have no doubt my experience with "ghosts" was demonic influence. There isn't any other explanation.

 

[AgnosticBoy]

I’m going to draw an analogy with “cold reading by psychic.” Now, this is often where someone is trying to trick you.

But I think even when someone is not trying to trick you, The human mind is going to latch on and make a really big deal out of coincidences [and maybe not even hardly notice the things Pam is wrong about]

That's a good point. I'd have to read up again on how specific her details were or if it was something that she could've gotten right coincidentally.

But I think her case lays out a blueprint for NDE studies. We can start to induce comas or even 'hypothermic cardiac arrest' to find out if people experience things, and I'd even count dreams as brain activity, but the problem is knowing when those thoughts took place. Then again, that approach wouldn't be ethical unless there was also some medical purpose involved.

During typical open-heart surgery, blood continues to circulate throughout the body although major blood vessels are clamped to prevent the flow of blood into the surgical area.

An effective solution to the dilemma of how to temporarily stop blood circulation without causing injury to the patient, resulted in the development of a technique in the 1970s known as hypothermic circulatory arrest (HCA).

Hypothermic circulatory arrest temporarily suspends blood flow under very cold body temperatures. At cold temperatures, cellular activity levels slow significantly so blood circulation can be stopped for up to 40 minutes without harm to the patient.

Source: Cedars Sinai Medical Center

 

[Multicolored Lemur]

But the details given in Pam's case, if they were truly experienced by her, could have been demonic.

Thanks for putting it out there. But I’ll tell you, believing in and worrying about demons is one reason I’m glad I’m an atheist [or atheist-agnostic if I want to be more technical].

I’m open to the idea that your experience of seeing ghosts was very intense, just like my experience of briefly seeing a UFO. Your experience may have been more intense than mine.

I’d still say there’s a thousand potential explanations. As one guess, maybe low blood sugar + being “primed” by hearing someone talk about activity in a specific locale + something akin to a waking dream.

and if we go 3-fold from the ocean of possible explanations, that’s 1,000 raised to the 3rd power. In other words, A Lot!

* I’m probably not going to reveal the details of my UFO experience

 

[AgnosticBoy]

I found an interesting article that explains why the Pam Reynolds case is probably the best documented NDE and it addresses some skeptical objections. Enjoy!

Just posted some highlights from the article... Written by Chris Carter in the Journal of Near-Death Studies, 30(1), Fall 2011 © 2011 IANDS... article written by Chris Carter

The near-death experience (NDE) of Pam Reynolds is one of the most impressive and medically well-documented NDEs in the literature. It took place during an operation to remove a brain aneurism, and it included almost all the aspects of a classic NDE, including accurate visual perception of the operating theater. Furthermore, parts of the experience would seem to have occurred when no brain activity whatsoever was possible. Despite testimony to the contrary by the medical personnel involved, Gerald Woerlee has attempted to explain Reynolds' experience as a result of auditory impressions combined with an anesthesia-induced fantasy. I argue here that Woerlee's attempted explanation is simply unsupported by the documented facts of the case. I also invite Woerlee to accompany me to the Barrow Neurological Institute to participate in an empirical test under the exact auditory conditions Reynolds experienced.

... However, Woerlee’s article is concerned only with trying to provide a “normal” explanation for the veridical auditory components of Reynolds’ experience, and so it is on these points that I will focus.

Reynolds had been referred to neurosurgeon Robert Spetzler of the Barrow Institute, as Spetzler had pioneered a daring surgical procedure known as hypothermic cardiac arrest that would allow Reynolds’ aneurysm to be removed with a reasonable chance of success. This operation, nicknamed “standstill” by the surgeons who perform it, would require her body temperature to be lowered to 60 degrees Fahrenheit, her heartbeat and breathing stopped, the electrical activity in her brain extinguished, and the blood drained from her head. In ordinary clinical terms, Reynolds would be dead.

This extraordinary episode in the history of NDE research is described in great detail by cardiologist and pioneering NDE researcher Michael Sabom (1998) in Chapter 3 of his book Light & Death. As Sabom noted, the medical documentation of the events surrounding this case “far exceeds any recorded before and provides us with our most complete scientific glimpse yet into the near-death experience” (p. 38, emphasis original).

By three clinical tests—flat EEG, no brainstem activity, no blood flowing through the brain—Reynolds’ brain was dead, with almost certainly no activity whatsoever. Yet Reynolds reported the deepest NDE Sabom had ever investigated. Reynolds was interviewed on CBS’s television show, 48 Hours, along with Sabom and Spetzler. As Reynolds’ attending surgeon, Spetzler left no doubt about her clinical condition during hypothermic cardiac arrest: “If you would examine that patient from a clinical perspective during that hour, that patient by all definition would be dead. At this point there is no brain activity, no blood going through the brain. Nothing, nothing, nothing” (Sabom, 1998, 50).

At the time, Reynolds’ ears were blocked by small molded speakers inserted into her ears to monitor the auditory nerve center in her brainstem. The speakers continuously played 100-decibel-level clicks into one or the other of her ears at a rate of 11.3 per second. As a point of reference for readers, 100 decibels is about the level a symphony orchestra plays at full volume, and prolonged exposure to sound more intense than 85 decibels will cause hearing loss (Centers for Disease Control, 2011).

Woerlee wrote:
"If a disembodied conscious mind can pass through several concrete floors without experiencing any apparent resistance, then it will certainly not interact in any way with the infinitely less solid air pressure variations of sound waves in air caused by speech or music. Accordingly, an apparently disembodied conscious mind is unable to hear sound waves in air. (p. 7)"

Woerlee seems to be committing the fallacy of thinking that if it cannot be explained how something occurs, then that means that it therefore does not occur. This fallacy appears repeatedly in the history of science. Reports of rocks that fall from the sky—what today are known as meteorites—were dismissed by scientists for decades on the grounds that there are no rocks in the sky to fall (Westrum, 1978). For decades, geologists ridiculed Wegener’s evidence for continental drift because he could offer no convincing explanation for how the landmasses moved about. And such anti-empiricism can cause great suffering: Consider that before bacteria and their role in disease were known, physicians rejected the practice of hand-washing because it made no sense to them, despite evidence that the practice resulted in meaningful declines in hospital deaths. So, at the present stage of scientific understanding, little more can be said other than that disembodied perception of the surrounding environment, if it in fact occurs, is mediated via a different process than that of embodied perception.

Can we at least agree that this is a well-documented case?! : )