In John chapter 20, Jesus says, “As the Father has sent me..” and delegates forgiveness of sins to his disciplines? Apparently so.

[Multicolored Lemur]

Bible Gateway passage: John 20 - New Living Translation

The Resurrection - Early on Sunday morning, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene came to the tomb and found that the stone had been rolled away from the entrance. She ran and found Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one whom Jesus loved. She said, “They have taken the Lord’s body out of...

www.biblegateway.com

19 That Sunday evening the disciples were meeting behind locked doors because they were afraid of the Jewish leaders. Suddenly, Jesus was standing there among them! “Peace be with you,” he said. 20 As he spoke, he showed them the wounds in his hands and his side. They were filled with joy when they saw the Lord! 21 Again he said, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I am sending you.” 22 Then he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, they are forgiven. If you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

—————

Now, Jesus does say, “As the Father has sent me, so I am sending you.” And he says, “Receive the Holy Spirit,” which is desired, accepted, and appreciated by Christian leaders, and many individual believers as well.

Okay, for the average believer, this might be forgiving per the usual way of believing in Jesus and repenting [as I think is most emphasized in the letters of the Apostle Paul].

But still —

Are the Catholics right?

Old school?

Because it sure seems like Jesus is elevating his disciples to the role of someone a believer has to go through. I’m not sure Catholics believe this anymore, or really, if they ever did.

This section of the Gospel of John is saying something very similar to this.

—————

Especially the second part in which Jesus says, “ … If you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

Wow.

So if you don’t get forgiven by a Christian leader, there’s no other way to get forgiven? That is significantly different from what other parts of the New Testament say.

 

[Multicolored Lemur]

Bible Gateway passage: John 20 - New Living Translation

The Resurrection - Early on Sunday morning, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene came to the tomb and found that the stone had been rolled away from the entrance. She ran and found Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one whom Jesus loved. She said, “They have taken the Lord’s body out of...

www.biblegateway.com

24 One of the twelve disciples, Thomas (nicknamed the Twin), was not with the others when Jesus came. 25 They told him, “We have seen the Lord!”

But he replied, “I won’t believe it unless I see the nail wounds in his hands, put my fingers into them, and place my hand into the wound in his side.”

26 Eight days later the disciples were together again, and this time Thomas was with them. The doors were locked; but suddenly, as before, Jesus was standing among them. “Peace be with you,” he said.

.

.

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Okay, so this part is talking about the disciple Thomas. Meaning that the confusing part about forgiveness is not helped by the context, at least not by the context in its immediate neighborhood.

 

[Multicolored Lemur]

The Bible is written by human beings … who are trying their best to grapple with issues which are both … intellectually challenging and emotionally charged.

And coming up with slightly different answers is sometimes what happens when you’re being honest. Sometimes in just trying to be honest with yourself.

 

[Multicolored Lemur]

with Respect.

The Bible is a collection of ancient texts, and should be accorded the same respect as any other ancient text, no more, no less.

 

[Scooter]

Admittedly, this is a difficult passage of scripture to understand. Unfortunately, many have assumed the privilege of forgiving sins, which God never gave to humans. It is impossible to forgive someone who offended or hurt another. In the same way it is impossible for a man to forgive another who has offended God. What I can do, however, is show offenders how to be forgiven and reconciled back to God. If they confess their wrongs done to God, and repent of their sins, then they will be forgiven. If they refuse to repent, their sins will remain, and they will suffer the consequences. Here are several views held by respected Bible scholars and theologians that can explain this passage better than I.

Matthew Henry:

One particular branch of the power given them by their commission particularized (Joh 20:23): "Whosesoever sins you remit, in the due execution of the powers you are entrusted with, they are remitted to them, and they may take the comfort of it; and whosesoever sins you retain, that is, pronounce unpardoned and the guilt of them bound on, they are retained, and the sinner may be sure of it, to his sorrow." Now this follows upon their receiving the Holy Ghost; for, if they had not had an extraordinary spirit of discerning, they had not been fit to be entrusted with such an authority; for, in the strictest sense, this is a special commission to the apostles themselves and the first preachers of the gospel, who could distinguish who were in the gall of bitterness and bond of iniquity, and who were not. By virtue of this power, Peter struck Ananias and Sapphira dead, and Paul struck Elymas blind. Yet it must be understood as a general charter to the church and her ministers, not securing an infallibility of judgment to any man or company of men in the world, but encouraging the faithful stewards of the mysteries of God to stand to the gospel they were sent to preach, for that God himself will stand to it. The apostles, in preaching remission, must begin at Jerusalem, though she had lately brought upon herself the guilt of Christ's blood: "Yet you may declare their sins remitted upon gospel terms." And Peter did so, Ac 2:38; 3:19. Christ, being risen for our justification, sends his gospel heralds to proclaim the jubilee begun, the act of indemnity now passed; and by this rule men shall be judged, Joh 12:48; Ro 2:16; Jas 2:12. God will never alter this rule of judgment, nor vary from it; those whom the gospel acquits shall be acquitted, and those whom the gospel condemns shall be condemned, which puts immense honour upon the ministry, and should put immense courage into ministers. Two ways the apostles and ministers of Christ remit and retain sin, and both as having authority:-- [1.] By sound doctrine. They are commissioned to tell the world that salvation is to be had upon gospel terms, and no other, and they shall find God will say Amen to it; so shall their doom be. [2.] By a strict discipline, applying the general rule of the gospel to particular persons. "Whom you admit into communion with you, according to the rules of the gospel, God will admit into communion with himself; and whom you cast out of communion as impenitent, and obstinate in scandalous and infectious sins, shall be bound over to the righteous judgment of God."

Albert Barnes:

The meaning of the passage is not that man can forgive sins--that belongs only to God (Isa 43:23), but that they should be inspired; that in founding the church, and in declaring the will of God, they should be taught by the Holy Ghost to declare on what terms, to what characters, and to what temper of mind God would extend forgiveness of sins. It was not authority to forgive individuals, but to establish in all the churches the terms and conditions on which men might be pardoned, with a promise that God would confirm all that they taught; that all might have assurance of forgiveness who would comply with those terms; and that those who did not comply should not be forgiven, but that their sins should be retained. This commission is as far as possible from the authority which the Roman Catholic claims of remitting sin and of pronouncing pardon.

Adam Clarke:

It is certain God alone can forgive sins; and it would not only be blasphemous, but grossly absurd, to say that any creature could remit the guilt of a transgression which had been committed against the Creator. The apostles received from the Lord the doctrine of reconciliation, and the doctrine of condemnation. They who believed on the Son of God, in consequence of their preaching, had their sins remitted; and they who would not believe were declared to lie under condemnation.

John Gill:

God only can forgive sins, and Christ being God, has a power to do so likewise; but he never communicated any such power to his apostles; nor did they ever assume any such power to themselves, or pretend to exercise it; it is the mark of antichrist, to attempt anything of the kind; who, in so doing, usurps the divine prerogative, places himself in his seat, and shows himself as if he was God: but this is to be understood only in a doctrinal, or ministerial way, by preaching the full and free remission of sins, through the blood of Christ, according to the riches of God's grace, to such as repent of their sins, and believe in Christ; declaring, that all such persons as do so repent and believe, all their sins are forgiven for Christ's sake.

 

[AgnosticBoy]

Are the Catholics right?

Old school?

Because it sure seems like Jesus is elevating his disciples to the role of someone a believer has to go through. I’m not sure Catholics believe this anymore, or really, if they ever did.

This section of the Gospel of John is saying something very similar to this.

—————

Especially the second part in which Jesus says, “ … If you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

Wow.

Yes, just wow! Never caught this before in all of my reading of the Bible and my initial take is that it is disturbing. The main reason I never liked the Catholic Church as a Christian is because I don't agree with the idea of middle men when it comes to salvation. Protestant does away with all of these middlemen, priests, bishops, popes, and instead you have direct access to the Bible (which once upon a time had to be read by leadership only) and direct access to God.

I can see these people being beneficial as guides or teachers to help one along with the process, but not as some gatekeeper to it.

 

[AgnosticBoy]

Admittedly, this is a difficult passage of scripture to understand. Unfortunately, many have assumed the privilege of forgiving sins, which God never gave to humans. It is impossible to forgive someone who offended or hurt another. In the same way it is impossible for a man to forgive another who has offended God. What I can do, however, is show offenders how to be forgiven and reconciled back to God. If they confess their wrongs done to God, and repent of their sins, then they will be forgiven. If they refuse to repent, their sins will remain, and they will suffer the consequences. Here are several views held by respected Bible scholars and theologians that can explain this passage better than I.

Matthew Henry:

One particular branch of the power given them by their commission particularized (Joh 20:23): "Whosesoever sins you remit, in the due execution of the powers you are entrusted with, they are remitted to them, and they may take the comfort of it; and whosesoever sins you retain, that is, pronounce unpardoned and the guilt of them bound on, they are retained, and the sinner may be sure of it, to his sorrow." Now this follows upon their receiving the Holy Ghost; for, if they had not had an extraordinary spirit of discerning, they had not been fit to be entrusted with such an authority; for, in the strictest sense, this is a special commission to the apostles themselves and the first preachers of the gospel, who could distinguish who were in the gall of bitterness and bond of iniquity, and who were not. By virtue of this power, Peter struck Ananias and Sapphira dead, and Paul struck Elymas blind. Yet it must be understood as a general charter to the church and her ministers, not securing an infallibility of judgment to any man or company of men in the world, but encouraging the faithful stewards of the mysteries of God to stand to the gospel they were sent to preach, for that God himself will stand to it. The apostles, in preaching remission, must begin at Jerusalem, though she had lately brought upon herself the guilt of Christ's blood: "Yet you may declare their sins remitted upon gospel terms." And Peter did so, Ac 2:38; 3:19. Christ, being risen for our justification, sends his gospel heralds to proclaim the jubilee begun, the act of indemnity now passed; and by this rule men shall be judged, Joh 12:48; Ro 2:16; Jas 2:12. God will never alter this rule of judgment, nor vary from it; those whom the gospel acquits shall be acquitted, and those whom the gospel condemns shall be condemned, which puts immense honour upon the ministry, and should put immense courage into ministers. Two ways the apostles and ministers of Christ remit and retain sin, and both as having authority:-- [1.] By sound doctrine. They are commissioned to tell the world that salvation is to be had upon gospel terms, and no other, and they shall find God will say Amen to it; so shall their doom be. [2.] By a strict discipline, applying the general rule of the gospel to particular persons. "Whom you admit into communion with you, according to the rules of the gospel, God will admit into communion with himself; and whom you cast out of communion as impenitent, and obstinate in scandalous and infectious sins, shall be bound over to the righteous judgment of God."

Albert Barnes:

The meaning of the passage is not that man can forgive sins--that belongs only to God (Isa 43:23), but that they should be inspired; that in founding the church, and in declaring the will of God, they should be taught by the Holy Ghost to declare on what terms, to what characters, and to what temper of mind God would extend forgiveness of sins. It was not authority to forgive individuals, but to establish in all the churches the terms and conditions on which men might be pardoned, with a promise that God would confirm all that they taught; that all might have assurance of forgiveness who would comply with those terms; and that those who did not comply should not be forgiven, but that their sins should be retained. This commission is as far as possible from the authority which the Roman Catholic claims of remitting sin and of pronouncing pardon.

Adam Clarke:

It is certain God alone can forgive sins; and it would not only be blasphemous, but grossly absurd, to say that any creature could remit the guilt of a transgression which had been committed against the Creator. The apostles received from the Lord the doctrine of reconciliation, and the doctrine of condemnation. They who believed on the Son of God, in consequence of their preaching, had their sins remitted; and they who would not believe were declared to lie under condemnation.

John Gill:

God only can forgive sins, and Christ being God, has a power to do so likewise; but he never communicated any such power to his apostles; nor did they ever assume any such power to themselves, or pretend to exercise it; it is the mark of antichrist, to attempt anything of the kind; who, in so doing, usurps the divine prerogative, places himself in his seat, and shows himself as if he was God: but this is to be understood only in a doctrinal, or ministerial way, by preaching the full and free remission of sins, through the blood of Christ, according to the riches of God's grace, to such as repent of their sins, and believe in Christ; declaring, that all such persons as do so repent and believe, all their sins are forgiven for Christ's sake.

I appreciate that information. I'm not fully convinced by it. I wish the last two authors didn't just simply explain their view but also show how they reconcile it with John 20:23. Currently, looking this topic up on one of my go-to sites. Will post it if I find anything worth mentioning.

 

[AgnosticBoy]

GotQuestions website explains that it is Jesus that forgives:

The very core of the gospel message is the truth that the way someone has their sins forgiven is by having faith in Jesus Christ as his or her Lord and Savior. In Acts 10:43, when Peter was sharing the gospel, he said, “Everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.” First John 5:1-5 tells us only he who believes in Jesus will overcome the world. Luke 5:20 says, “When Jesus saw their faith, He said ‘Friend, your sins are forgiven.’” Colossians 2:13-14 says Jesus forgave all our sins. All these passages confirm that Jesus is the one who forgives sin, and He forgives all of our sins.

But of course, John 20:23 seems to say otherwise, and GotQuestions explains this:

He sent them, as He is sending us, to bring the good news of the way to salvation and heaven to the whole world. Jesus was leaving the earth physically but promised God would be with them in the person of the Holy Spirit living in them. As they proclaimed the gospel, they could honestly tell people who believed in that message that their sins were forgiven, and they could honestly tell people that did not believe in the message that their sins were not forgiven and that they stand condemned in God’s eyes. “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him” (John 3:36).

Believers today have the very same mission given to us! We are obligated to share the gospel message, the way to heaven, to others in the world, and we go about that mission with the Holy Spirit living inside us, guiding us as we share His truth. We are obligated to tell people the only way to be forgiven is through faith.

What to make of these explanations?
I like the first part I quoted because I knew there were passages where Jesus says that it is him that forgives. But is there anywhere that says that it's him alone? Acts 10:43 shows just that in that it mentions just believing in Jesus leads to forgiveness of sin. That's a totally distinct process than having to go to an apostle or any other middleman to get forgiveness.

So far so good.

But then in the next paragraphs i quoted, I don't like the explanation. It adds more to what John 20:23 says. It acknowledges that John 20:23 says that if the apostles told someone they were forgiven, then they were forgiven. But then adds that "they could tell people that did not believe in the message" that they were not forgiven. John 20:23 does not mention that part at all - in other words the reason or basis for the forgiveness was not mentioned, which is why it just seems that it's based solely on what the apostles wanted to do - to forgive or not. Perhaps we can say that that John 20:23 leaves out information that can be filled in by reading other parts of the Bible. I guess that's possible just as long as the John passage doesn't use exclusionary language like saying just based on the apostles alone is forgiveness granted.