In John chapter 20, Jesus says, “As the Father has sent me..” and delegates forgiveness of sins to his disciplines? Apparently so.

[Scooter]

This sounds a whole lot like granting authority to a human being.

Just a little FYI, Peter was not even over the church in Jerusalem. James, the half brother of Jesus, was in charge. See Acts 12:17 and Acts 15:13. James was not even one of Jesus’ disciples.

Also, there is no Biblical evidence Peter ever went to Rome, much less became a pope.

 

[Multicolored Lemur]

Also, there is no Biblical evidence Peter ever went to Rome, much less became a pope.

I’m not sure Catholics claim either, just that Peter was the first leader of the church.

 

[Scooter]

I’m not sure Catholics claim either, just that Peter was the first leader of the church.

As I have shown, James was the first leader of the church, not Peter.

 

[Multicolored Lemur]

France during Nazi occupation

movie from 1995

A Jewish family asks this man to take their daughter to a convent. The Reverend Mother knows exactly what’s going on . . . But she doesn’t want this girl murdered. She wants to help.

And she teaches the girl Catholic prayers herself, I think because she doesn’t want any of her Nuns to incriminate themselves.

At one point, the little girl says already knows the Jewish prayer, for bedtime I think, and she asks, Why do I have to learn another?

With a smile and an encouraging voice, the Reverend Mother says, “because God loves prayers.”

—————

And this is what religion could be if we as a society could just lightened up on the topic.

 

[Multicolored Lemur]

James, the half brother of Jesus, was in charge. See Acts 12:17 and Acts 15:13. James was not even one of Jesus’ disciples.

Thank you for these references. I will add them to my reading list.

 

[AgnosticBoy]

And hopefully, the disciples will use this power responsibly.

I mean, it could be that all this verse means is that Peter, John, James and all the rest have a responsibility for teaching the Gospel, but that’s not what the actual words seem to say.

That's true. You would think if they are of good heart they wouldn't abuse it, but I'm skeptical of giving any man that much power unless there were clear guidelines that they had to abide by, like having a good reason why someone wouldn't be forgiven by them. Like was the person not repenting?

Having these guidelines and standards spelled out would bring some fairness.

 

[Multicolored Lemur]

but I'm skeptical of giving any man that much power unless there were clear guidelines that they had to abide by, like having a good reason why someone wouldn't be forgiven by them. Like was the person not repenting?

and I’m not sure someone should judge whether someone else has truly repented vs backsliding

* I guess the very fact that I write”truly repented,” I’m kind of setting up to later say “not good enough” ! ! !

there’s some mistake here somewhere

 

[AgnosticBoy]

@Multicolored Lemur

That's a good point. Some cases would be easier to prove than others, like catching a husband in an affair multiple times, even after he claims to have repented. Other acts may not be so easy, like lying, etc. I wonder if there was some court like system in the early Church.

In my Church days, there was some informal process at my Church. It was reserved for recognized members of the Church. Pastors and elders of the Church would get together and address an issue someone brought up to them. NOt sure what action was taken though.

 

[AgnosticBoy]

As I have shown, James was the first leader of the church, not Peter.

The entire Pope topic just gets to me. I just hate people being set up in such a powerful position - claiming infallibility (making him unquestionable).

I also got to thinking why is Peter considered the first Pope if James was the first leader of an actual Church. But some Catholics would probably say it's not based on just who leads a Church, but also the part about Jesus appointing the position to Peter.

Google's Ai tells me this:
Me: was the first church the one in jerusalem? Then why is Peter considered the first pope?

Google: Catholic tradition holds that Jesus gave Peter preeminent authority over the other apostles, and that this authority was not personal but was meant to be passed down.

 

[Multicolored Lemur]

The entire Pope topic just gets to me. I just hate people being set up in such a powerful position - claiming infallibility (making him unquestionable).

I urge you to try to take this down a notch.

Most Catholics in richer countries pick-and-choose which doctrines they take more or less seriously. And most human beings have learned to take religion medium seriously, no more. And in poorer countries, well, these days low-income persons have access to mass media and social, cough, cough, I mean, anti-social media, at least through one or two random intermediaries. And therefore, I conclude that most people in general pick-and-choose.

And the Catholic Church has made progress in approaching Best Practice as far as preventing sexual abuse and responding to reports of sexual abuse. Much more nearly than has American evangelical churches, at least so far. Hint, Hint. Yes, I do want churches to continue to make major progress.

.

.

PS The United States Army is another large organization which learns and gets better over time, just saying.