Trying Out Religions in Case They "Work"

[Honest-ism]

Does anybody else do this?

I've mainly tried Christianity, over and over. I can sort of get into it, partly because you get promised that if you do, if you read the Bible and pray, faith will be given to you. I don't want to miss out. But it's never worked for long. The Bible, for instance, with all the contradictions; would God send us such a document? Maybe it's been corrupted, through mistakes and translations of translations or even deliberately--but would God allow that to happen? I get driven farther away from Christianity when I read it.

I'm tempted now, but don't tell anybody (I live in the US "Bible Belt"), to try Islam. With that one, you're supposed to read all the arguments for why it's the truth, and make up your mind. I'm reading those, and also the Quran. There is a lot that's appealing in the Quran, and a little bit that's not, but so far, no contradictions. The violence thing: So far, it's saying that you can defend yourself, or your faith I think, but if the other side isn't attacking you, you shouldn't use violence, and even when you do, you shouldn't do it to excess, whatever they mean by that but I would guess no torture, maybe no killing of noncombatants. On women: so far, they are given a lot of respect, but there is a line about chastising your wife. It comes after several suggestions for things to try first, and it says that when the problem is ended you're not supposed to continue any repercussions. So, I dunno, but I'm still reading. (Also, it makes the point that men are assigned to take care of women since they're weaker. Take care of, not primarily chastise. I see it as an overall nurturing attitude.)
As for the evidence, and there is a lot on Islam-promoting sites, it's all challenged elsewhere, but so is Christianity's evidence. I haven't read it all yet; maybe something will ring a bell.

Okay, my point is not to praise Islam or even discuss it, but just to open up the topic of trying out religions. IF this worked and if God, or Allah (same thing, different language) will finally allow me to believe a religion because I finally got the right one, I will be happy.

Agnosticism is a lonely road for me. Is it for you? There are atheist groups but I can't go that far. I even tried it, but it also has problems that keep me from really, unreservedly believing it. And to be honest, I don't want it to be right.

 

[AgnosticBoy]

Agnosticism is a lonely road for me. Is it for you?

WHen you talked about reading up on different religions, I was just applauding for you. In my view, that should be done. Agnostics are sincere explorers. But at the very beginning, I was thinking that it would lead to a feeling of loneliness and sure enough you brought that up at the end.

I've been through the same experience. It is not that I'm anti-social or anti-group affiliations, but rather the problem is that none of them meet the agnostic ideal of certainty, and we're certainly not going to pretend that something is certain when it's not. I've tried to go along with a religion anyway or some political group, just to do it, but my agnostic mindset again kicked in, and I couldn't find myself being a good Christian or Republican, or Democrat because once they became dogmatic, or pretended to know it all, it turned me off again. So what's the solution?

Form our own group since there are many of us around. I'm sure there are plenty of moderates, agnostics, independents, freethinkers, and even Christians and atheists who admit to just "belief" but not "knowing" (i.e. Agnostic theists, Agnostic atheists, etc.).

You also have to be practical. To live life, I don't apply my agnostic standard everywhere. If you did, life would be hard to live. Just establish a "practical truth" or a reasonable level truth and act on those as opposed to acting only when you attain absolute truth. I look at it (agnosticism) as a mode of mind that I apply only in intellectual matters, especially on important topics. Settings like these online forums are a very good outlet for our agnosticism.

Also, don't think of it as wrong that you don't want to fully commit to any group. It's better not to in order to avoid living in false certainties. That was the point in leaving religious systems anyways. And I actually think we're in the majority anyways, but we're willing to admit it.

This has worked for me but I welcome any other ideas.

 

[Honest-ism]

WHen you talked about reading up on different religions, I was just applauding for you. In my view, that should be done. Agnostics are sincere explorers. But at the very beginning, I was thinking that it would lead to a feeling of loneliness and sure enough you brought that up at the end. I've been through the same experience. It is not that I'm anti-social or anti-group affiliations, but rather the problem is that none of them meet the agnostic ideal of certainty, and we're certainly not going to pretend that something is certain when it's not. I've tried to go along with a religion anyway or some political group, just to do it, but my agnostic mindset again kicked in, and I couldn't find myself being a good Christian or Republican, or Democrat because once they became dogmatic, or pretended to know it all, it turned me off again. So what's the solution? Form our own group since there are many of us around. I'm sure there are plenty of moderates, agnostics, independents, freethinkers, and even Christians and atheists who admit to just "belief" but not "knowing" (i.e. Agnostic theists, Agnostic atheists, etc.). You also have to be practical. To live life, I don't apply my agnostic standard everywhere. If you did, life would be hard to live. Just establish a "practical truth" or a reasonable level truth and act on those as opposed to acting only when you attain absolute truth. I look at it (agnosticism) as a mode of mind that I apply only in intellectual matters, especially on important topics. Settings like these online forums are a very good outlet for our agnosticism. Also, don't think of it as wrong that you don't want to fully commit to any group. It's better not to in order to avoid living in false certainties. That was the point in leaving religious systems anyways. And I actually think we're in the majority anyways, but we're willing to admit it. This has worked for me but I welcome any other ideas.

Hmm... I thought I saw something about this site being closed on weekends but I can't find it now. Is that because it's changed? Anyway, I'll limit myself to one post per day on the weekend, if any, until I know.

But speaking of knowing: Do we really know anything for certain? I once followed that idea, uncertainty about reality, all the way down to having nothing left but that I was something having some experience. After a lot of searching for something additional to be sure of, I gave up, and decided that I would assume that human life and all the stuff around me was real, because--no really good reason; *maybe* because I like it, maybe because it's natural to me, maybe because of the deep suspicion that if I don't, I'll end up in the hospital or in jail. Once I decided (or it SEEMS as though I decided) on that, I've followed it and rarely thought about it, and all is (mostly) well. It works.

Can we do the same about religion? Especially if we really want one? I may try. I have the reality thought project for guidance now.

I never finished reading the Quran. It got to ranting about one God, one God, one God, over and over, and that it was the only unforgivable sin to think He had any "associates". Something about that just didn't sound like God to me and I concluded that that probably wasn't the one for me. What's the big deal anyway? God could have a son if he wanted, or 100 children, or 7 billion. How would we know?
There were a few other things that were a bit off-putting. So I started reading what I think is the first serious Baha'i scripture, the Kitab-I-Iqan if I'm spelling it correctly. I liked it a lot and it made a lot of sense. Then I hit the statement that if you leave copper unmined for 70 years it turns into gold. I didn't think one element could turn into another, but I looked it up. Some scientists have found that if you do things to copper it can attain some of the qualities of gold, but it's not gold. Also, if that happened, how would we be finding any copper anywhere at this late date?
So just no. I can much more easily believe that there can be a God that we can't see, than I can believe that copper can turn into gold. (He wasn't talking in allegory about something spiritual; it was an illustration to "explain" or give an understandable parallel to something that happens spiritually.) Further digging revealed that Bahai's sometimes get into a lot of alchemy and have "secret knowledge" about things. No thanks. I'm choosing to believe that this physical world operates in a reasonable, orderly, predictable way. It's not that I know. It's more that if you don't, you have utter chaos and don't even know which way is up, and I'm not living that way. Does this make sense? I'm trying to believe in one being Who is possibly outside of those laws, but the whole physical world being random--not trying that.

So Christianity is starting to look to be the most believable (to me) of the major religions and largest recent one. Maybe I'll go back to that and try again. Now that I know that I don't know much, but choose to assume what reality is... but this post is already long. Later.

 

[AgnosticBoy]

Hmm... I thought I saw something about this site being closed on weekends but I can't find it now. Is that because it's changed? Anyway, I'll limit myself to one post per day on the weekend, if any, until I know.

That's old policy. When I started this forum, I was a one man show and thought I would not be able to moderate the forum effectively. After looking at the ratio of moderators to members on other threads, I realized that I should be able to handle it. Other bigger threads have 1 moderator for every 500 members (even up to 1,000 members in some cases).

But speaking of knowing: Do we really know anything for certain? I once followed that idea, uncertainty about reality, all the way down to having nothing left but that I was something having some experience. After a lot of searching for something additional to be sure of, I gave up, and decided that I would assume that human life and all the stuff around me was real, because--no really good reason; *maybe* because I like it, maybe because it's natural to me, maybe because of the deep suspicion that if I don't, I'll end up in the hospital or in jail. Once I decided (or it SEEMS as though I decided) on that, I've followed it and rarely thought about it, and all is (mostly) well. It works.

Yeah, there are definitely some assumptions that we must accept to live. I like to tell agnostics that they should have a practical level of reason, otherwise you'll never end up accepting anything. That would be the lowest level to accept. FOr instance, for history, it would be ideal to have scientific evidence but that is hardly possible and so we can't just forget about all of history because of that. To be practical, we have to go on some historical standards that are less-than-scientific, and thankfully historians have come up with some, and we go on those to establish historical fact from fiction.

On the flip side, there's also no excuse for not using reason and evidence at all, like some religionists tend to do. Even if the supernatural is beyond provable in a lot of cases, but we should still try to use reason as far as it can take us. The same goes for politics, law, and our day-to-day lives.

Can we do the same about religion? Especially if we really want one? I may try. I have the reality thought project for guidance now.

I never finished reading the Quran. It got to ranting about one God, one God, one God, over and over, and that it was the only unforgivable sin to think He had any "associates". Something about that just didn't sound like God to me and I concluded that that probably wasn't the one for me. What's the big deal anyway? God could have a son if he wanted, or 100 children, or 7 billion. How would we know?
There were a few other things that were a bit off-putting. So I started reading what I think is the first serious Baha'i scripture, the Kitab-I-Iqan if I'm spelling it correctly. I liked it a lot and it made a lot of sense. Then I hit the statement that if you leave copper unmined for 70 years it turns into gold. I didn't think one element could turn into another, but I looked it up. Some scientists have found that if you do things to copper it can attain some of the qualities of gold, but it's not gold. Also, if that happened, how would we be finding any copper anywhere at this late date?
So just no. I can much more easily believe that there can be a God that we can't see, than I can believe that copper can turn into gold. (He wasn't talking in allegory about something spiritual; it was an illustration to "explain" or give an understandable parallel to something that happens spiritually.) Further digging revealed that Bahai's sometimes get into a lot of alchemy and have "secret knowledge" about things. No thanks. I'm choosing to believe that this physical world operates in a reasonable, orderly, predictable way. It's not that I know. It's more that if you don't, you have utter chaos and don't even know which way is up, and I'm not living that way. Does this make sense? I'm trying to believe in one being Who is possibly outside of those laws, but the whole physical world being random--not trying that.

So Christianity is starting to look to be the most believable (to me) of the major religions and largest recent one. Maybe I'll go back to that and try again. Now that I know that I don't know much, but choose to assume what reality is... but this post is already long. Later.

I get where you're heading. I don't think there are any perfect answers. It's all a journey and I hope we can share some good tips here and there that will help us along. I know you have found a lot of hard to believe stuff about religion. Let us also know if you've found anything that is true or seems reasonable, even from an experience standpoint.

 

[AgnosticBoy]

A good rule of thumb is to ask what type or level of evidence should be expected for the particular phenomenon or subject that you're investigating. Some skeptics will try to act as if only scientific evidence matters, but that isn't always the case.

 

[Multicolored Lemur]

I never finished reading the Quran. It got to ranting about one God, one God, one God, over and over, and that it was the only unforgivable sin to think He had any "associates". Something about that just didn't sound like God to me and I concluded that that probably wasn't the one for me. What's the big deal anyway? God could have a son if he wanted, or 100 children, or 7 billion.

I compliment you diving in and trying to learn about Islam. Perhaps you could view it as bridge building?

 

[Honest-ism]

There's so much to say... I haven't discovered the one true religion, sorry. That's unless it's whatever religion you can follow, that's in your nature, because I don't think you can fight your nature. Some people are easy believers, and some people are just skeptics, as I see it now.

I'm going to try to keep these short. I see Multicolored Lemur's post up there ^. Thank you. It was definitely bridge-building, because both Islam and Baha'i have more respect for the Bible than I thought. That means the oldest and most-followed major religion, and also the newest, plus the second largest, with two of these being the fastest-growing, all respect the Bible. So if I, or anyone looking at it the way I do, is going to follow something, the Bible is a reasonable choice, maybe the most reasonable.

People and organizations have different ways of looking at it, so I'm going to mostly ignore them and just read it. I have 2 paper copies and one on Kindle, all different translations, and I'm thinking about buying the newest which is said to have used the best sources. So if there's any disagreement, I can check these versions and see what the general consensus is. What more can one ordinary person do? It's going to take me about 2 years reading at my current rate.

The contradictions, well, I guess I'll just encounter them and keep reading. Baha'is say that a lot of what's in the Bible is allegory/figurative speech. Maybe. When I've read it all I hope to have a sense of the main message and then be able to go fit the contradictions back into that message.

I'm still tempted by Honest-ism--saying that I honestly don't know, and hoping that my respect for the possible God is good enough. There aren't many instructions in that, though, and there are no people to get together with. Purpose and meaning, maybe. I could be waiting for more information. Maybe I could write my own instructions from what I saw most often in the Bible.

 

[Honest-ism]

Another subject. AgnosticBoy, you were talking about things I've been thinking about a lot, in trying to understand how the firm believers get that way.
The subject I came up with to analyze was written history. I believe that what's in any good history book is largely true. Why? I wasn't there. I've never been outside the USA. For all I know, there are no pyramids, there was no moon landing, etc. But even with no proof, I believe in those things. I'm not quite sure why.

Best I could come up with is that, as we live, we gather evidence and experiences that all fit into a sort of interconnected web of supported "facts." As young children, we can believe in fairies, but as we gain life experiences, those things that we never see or otherwise experience drop away. History, we don't experience, but I guess it's part of the web of generally- recognized- as- true stuff. For one thing, it's taught in schools. Also, you see kings and queens, and wars, on TV and in magazines so you have an easy time believing in past kings and queens and wars.

Religion is taught in some schools, but far from all, and there is more controversy about it, and also more different versions of it. Miracles like healing by touch and people rising from the dead are not happening now. Well, maybe in some churches. I don't know about that but that's another thing I tend to not believe. I could go to that kind of church but I still don't think that would be conclusive because of the human capacity for faking, and the placebo effect. Anyway, you have to stop somewhere in the search for proof. Right?

So, how do the firm believers get that way? Do they have some sort of experience that confirms it for them? Some say that. I myself have had some experiences that temporarily raised my belief level quite high, but skepticism and alternate explanations wrecked it. Darn. The God I experienced was quite pleasant and helpful, someone you'd want to know. If He was real, I think we're all safe. Those experiences are probably the main reason I keep looking for a religion I can believe.

 

[Honest-ism]

Agnosticboy, you said:

" Let us also know if you've found anything that is true or seems reasonable, even from an experience standpoint. "

There were some things. Some of the religious people's arguments (1 and 2 below), which I had also come up with on my own, are good.

1. The world is extremely complex. Example: the human eye. Outward from there, the whole human body. To say that it just happened does seem like a bit of a stretch. But then, we're talking about very long periods of time for it to evolve. But still... It's a thought.

2. The large number of people worldwide who follow some sort of religion. It's hard to believe that it's just a hoax. Who could maintain such a hoax on a worldwide basis over thousands of years? I think that either it's true, or it's at least something that people really need or crave. I know I crave it. You can come up with reasons people would evolve such a need--or you could wonder about it.

3. There have been some very beautiful religious writings. Some of the Baha'i ones had me almost believing again--they were so beautiful. I strongly felt that no miserable greedy faking little human being could produce something like that. Either God wrote it, or the person had to be very sincere and very talented. If you want a sample I'll go fetch some. Too bad about the copper turning into gold thing.

4. Personally, I had some religious experiences. There were maybe 5, scattered over a period of over 20 years. You don't know I didn't fake them, but I do. Anyway, I don't think they were psychotic, since they were so rare and they never involved instructions to do anything destructive; they rarely made any suggestions at all, but were just comforting and encouraging. I can give you sample of those too, but you probably wouldn't believe them. They could have been a combination of coincidences and my wishful thinking, but taken together, they still make me wonder if maybe there was something else going on.

So I continue to wonder, hope, and search. I don't know if my skeptical mind will ever let up, though.

 

[Multicolored Lemur]

Some people are easy believers, and some people are just skeptics, as I see it now.

Please allow me to suggest two fields which are meaty and substantial, take at least three lifetimes worth of study, and greatly affect people’s lives:

Medicine, and

Economics.

Medicine we generally get right. Economics, not so much, at least as far as public generally understanding it. And with middle-income jobs slowly declining, even with more people arguably moving upward than downward, it will be the eventual end of the American Republic. And we’ll end up like Victorian England as described in the novels of Charles Dickens.

In a search for meaning, you might want to look at theories of ethics such as Kantian ethics (Immanuel Kant, or modern guy RM Hare), or Utilitarianism (John Stuart Mill, or modern guy Jonathan Glover). But in a year or two, you might find out the field only goes so far.