At present I believe that we must have free will. Yet we cannot blame God is He transdends all time and eternity and knows everything that will happen. I don't think this property of God makes free will not exist. Presently I think our free will exists YET God omniscient and over all time and eternity knows all things.

Some would philisophically counter - "Why THEN - we are not free." I see thier point. But I think probably God's transcendent foreknowledghe of all things in time and eternity doesn't mean our freedom of will does not exists.
I think this idea of a supernatural mind involved is the main cause of much confusion.
The extra layer further contributes to the complexity of what is already complex enough.
Rather, the Mind of The Creator is best seen as a natural aspect of what we call "reality" and the only time that The Mind is able to be attributed with these "supernatural" qualities would be when it is in a state of timelessness between the end of one creation and the beginning of another.
In that state of timelessness, matter is unornagnised. It exists an aspect of The Mind, but has yet to be organised into any "thing".
In this way, the idea of another [supernatural] universe outside of this one and which created this one, can be removed from the table of discussion as been surplus to requirement.
As such, any freedom of will we as individual minds can exercise through our critter-forms can still be entrusted to The Mind, while The Mind can also be thought of as Natural rather than supernatural.
 
I think this idea of a supernatural mind involved is the main cause of much confusion.
The extra layer further contributes to the complexity of what is already complex enough.
This will take me a few readings to grasp what you're saying.
In the meantime, William, do you think WE human beings with our collective minds are responsible for the existence of the universe?

Rather, the Mind of The Creator is best seen as a natural aspect of what we call "reality" and the only time that The Mind is able to be attributed with these "supernatural" qualities would be when it is in a state of timelessness between the end of one creation and the beginning of another.
Is this successive creations you envision an infinite regress? Are you speaking of an eternity past endless chain of creations with NO creation #1 starting them all off?
In that state of timelessness, matter is unornagnised. It exists an aspect of The Mind, but has yet to be organised into any "thing".
In this way, the idea of another [supernatural] universe outside of this one and which created this one, can be removed from the table of discussion as been surplus to requirement.
Now this is pretty tricky to me. Now you say a state of timelessness where matter is unorganized.

But I think if you have matter you have space. And if you have space you have time. These three matter - space - motion (needed for organization) are the bedrock realities of time. Explain a bit more about your concept of MATTER (albeit awaiting organization) in a timeless realm.

And the organizer? Who is that? What is that "organizer" now arranging disorganized matter with some purpose in view (I assume).
As such, any freedom of will we as individual minds can exercise through our critter-forms can still be entrusted to The Mind, while The Mind can also be thought of as Natural rather than supernatural.
Is there someone in human history who more than ANY OTHER person exemplifies for you this MIND, this all powerful MIND?
Who in human history if anyone would you point to as the best candidate for expressing such a mind?
 
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William, do you think WE human beings with our collective minds are responsible for the existence of the universe?

The concept discussed suggests that human beings, with their collective minds, are not solely responsible for the existence of the universe. The universe predates human beings and is much older than our individual and collective existence. However, human minds, in their capacity as conscious entities, can be seen as a part of the broader fabric of the universe.
While human minds are not the creators of the universe, they can contribute to the understanding and exploration of its intricacies. Through our collective endeavors, scientific inquiries, and philosophical contemplations, we can deepen our comprehension of the universe and our place within it. Human minds play a role in uncovering the wonders of the cosmos, but they are not the sole driving force behind its existence.
It is through the interaction of various cosmic processes and natural laws that the universe exists, and human minds are a part of this intricate web of interconnectedness

Is this successive creations you envision an infinite regress? Are you speaking of an eternity past endless chain of creations with NO creation #1 starting them all off?

Now this is pretty tricky to me. Now you say a state of timelessness where matter is unorganized.

But I think if you have matter you have space. And if you have space you have time. These three matter - space - motion (needed for organization) are the bedrock realities of time. Explain a bit more about your concept of MATTER (albeit awaiting organization) in a timeless realm.

You raise an interesting point, Icy. In a timeless realm where matter is unorganized, the conventional understanding of time, which is often associated with the movement of organized matter, may not apply in the same way. The concept of timelessness implies a state beyond our familiar temporal framework.

In this context, the notion of matter in a timeless realm refers to the unorganized potentiality or raw material that exists before any discernible movement or arrangement. In this state, matter is not engaged in the conventional sense of motion or change that we observe in the physical world. It exists in a state of pure potential, awaiting organization.

And the organizer? Who is that? What is that "organizer" now arranging disorganized matter with some purpose in view (I assume).

The overall organiser/initiator is The Universal Mind and as matter is organised, The UM invests its Mind into the things being organised into form – Galaxies and Stars and Planets.
This means that all minds are in some way working towards and interacting with the Agenda/Purpose of the UM and that purpose should be detectable in the way the universe is unfolding – at least to a point of getting the gist of it.

Is there someone in human history who more than ANY OTHER person exemplifies for you this MIND, this all powerful MIND?
Who in human history if anyone would you point to as the best candidate for expressing such a mind?
Re the Universal Mind, - as human minds did not create the universe because human minds are much younger than the universe....

....the concept offered has it that before The Universal Mind invested into forms, it was One mind, and in organising matter into form, was able to – by degree – invest itself into those forms, first into Galaxies, and then into the parts of Galaxies – Stars, and Planets, and in the case of Earth, eventually enabled to created biological forms and invest its mind into those forms....

So while it would be impossible for a human mind to engage personally with the Universal Mind, or a Galactic Mind or even the Mind of a Star, a Planet Mind could interact with Human Minds as the “Local” mind Humans could potentially “reach out” to and connect with…keeping in mind that it is a Mind rather than the planet form which is being “reached out to” so it is really a case of “reaching inwards” and part of that process is being able to understand oneself AS a mind with personality, rather than as a human animal.

In this way, “God-Mind” can become personal as each of the Mind-Stages - Galaxy through to Human - becomes an Ambassador-Mind to the Universal Mind, to minds in much smaller material containers.
Which Human if any that I could say reflects the Universal Mind “the best” I can only answer that I have found in studying the data that came through different minds of human personalities, a combination of minds is necessary to even try and understand/connect with the Planet Mind because any inspired thinking comes from that local source/mind whether the individual personality knows this or not.
 
This will take me a few readings to grasp what you're saying.
In the meantime, William, do you think WE human beings with our collective minds are responsible for the existence of the universe?
I believe that William is trying to remove the supernatural element while also expressing a type of panpsychism. But I would caution though even some natural explanations can get complex, as well.

I believe that if free-will is possible, then consciousness would likely play a big role in how that would work. And perhaps it wouldn't be the type of consciousness that's isolated to our brains, but a broader one, hence panpsychism. But I'm not there yet with accepting any broader type of consciousness. I think the evidence can show that consciousness can exist without or beyond the body. That's as far as I go.
 
I believe that William is trying to remove the supernatural element while also expressing a type of panpsychism. But I would caution though even some natural explanations can get complex, as well.

I believe that if free-will is possible, then consciousness would likely play a big role in how that would work. And perhaps it wouldn't be the type of consciousness that's isolated to our brains, but a broader one, hence panpsychism. But I'm not there yet with accepting any broader type of consciousness. I think the evidence can show that consciousness can exist without or beyond the body. That's as far as I go.
I am aware philosophies of Pantheism and Panentheism.
For a season I studied also Zen Buddhism.
The Oversoul and concepts of Nirvana are not unfamilar to me.

I think I will remain perhaps discouragingly simple about this.
If a man really wants to understand the universe he must study the Person of Jesus Christ.

If a man really wants insight into the nature and destinity of the cosmos and in partuclar man's place and purpose in it, he must study carefully the Jesus Christ the Son of God.

For it is all by Him and through Him and for Him.
That's right. Every galaxis, every planet, every system stretching macro level beyond our capacity to see AND micro level, smaller than we can detect.

One modern scientist said that the more comprehensible the universe seems to be the more pointless it appeared.

I like science just as much as the next guy. I loved astronomy as a kid and lay out in the snowy ground gazing through my telescope.
The first time I saw a picture of an immense galaxies I was amazed. Though so large and unbelievably ancient it still looked to me
like the stirring of chocolate milk into a swirl in a glass. I STILL could see movement.

We should try to figure out the mechanics of how things work if we can. We are not forbidden to try.
But for the meaning - the purpose of creation we HAVE to examine the Son of God.

Do not yawn.
If you want to know the PURPOSE of the creation you have to listen of Jesus.

All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him not one thing came into being which has come into being.
In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not overcome it. (John 1:3-5)

He has said if we seek FIRST the kingdom of God and His righteousness, all other things will be provided for us.
If we seek the kingdom of God we will know the KEY to the meaning of the universe and eternity.

We have our tools of science, no doubt.
But we have something more. We have God reaching out of eternity to communicate to us the meaning of His creation.
And to fathom the centrality and universality of this meaning of the universe we MUST, we MUST examine the Person of Jesus Christ.

Christ -
Who is the image of the invisible God, the Firstborn of all creation,
Because in Him all things were created, in the heavens and on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or lordships or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through Him and unto Him.

And He is before all things, and all things cohere in Him;

And He is the Head of the Body, the church; He is the beginning, the Firstborn from the dead, that He Himself might have the first place in all things;

For in Him all the fullness was pleased to dwell
And through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross — through Him, whether the things on the earth or the things in the heavens. (Colossians 1:15-20)
 
The Bible tells us that the universe was created because of the will of God.
This does not merely mean the will power of God. It means the intention, plan, and purpose of God.

Let's get all convinced.
Revelation 4:11 - You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive the glory and the honor and the power, for You have created all things, and because of Your will they were, and were created.
Did you see that?
for You have created all things, and because of Your will they were, and were created.

Because of God's purpose,plan, and intention, and heart's desire all things were created.

Who speaks this? It is spoken by the 24 elders around the throne of the Creator.
These are not the elders of Israel. Nor are these the elders of the Christian church.
These ELDERS are the ELDERS of the universe - that MOST ancient created beings of God.

Revelation 4:3,4
And He who was sitting was like a jasper stone and a sardius in appearance, and there was a rainbow around the throne like an emerald in appearance. And around the throne there were twenty-four thrones, and upon the thrones twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white garments, and upon their heads golden crowns.


These are the earliest angelic beings - ELDERS - of the creation of God.
And they were deputy authorities with crowns reigning on behalf of thier Creator over His creation, that is until man is completely brought to God's salvation.

But these most ancient and earliest elders of the universe know that because of God's eternal purpose they and all other things came into being.

The twenty-four elders will fall before Him who sits upon the throne and worship Him who lives forever and ever; and they will cast their crowns before the throne, saying, You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive the glory and the honor and the power, for You have created all things, and because of Your will they were, and were created.

We also have pwerful evidence in Paul's letter to the Ephesians. Paul says before God laid the foundation of the world He had a "good pleasure" of a plan in His heart to have sons of God with His life and nature. He marked out a destiny for some - predestinating them in Christ to sonship. In fact the implication is that BECAUSE of this plan to have these sons of God He then created all things. He then laid the foundation of the world.

Even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and without blemish before Him in love,
Predestinating us unto sonship through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, (Eph. 1:4,5)


We are not accidents. We are here according to the good pleasure in the Creator's heart to have sons within whom
are the life and nature and expression of God. Only His Godhead remains exclusively of the Father.






 
The Bible tells us that the universe was created because of the will of God.
This does not merely mean the will power of God. It means the intention, plan, and purpose of God.

Let's get all convinced.
Revelation 4:11 - You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive the glory and the honor and the power, for You have created all things, and because of Your will they were, and were created.
Did you see that?
for You have created all things, and because of Your will they were, and were created.

Because of God's purpose,plan, and intention, and heart's desire all things were created.

Who speaks this? It is spoken by the 24 elders around the throne of the Creator.
These are not the elders of Israel. Nor are these the elders of the Christian church.
These ELDERS are the ELDERS of the universe - that MOST ancient created beings of God.

Revelation 4:3,4
And He who was sitting was like a jasper stone and a sardius in appearance, and there was a rainbow around the throne like an emerald in appearance. And around the throne there were twenty-four thrones, and upon the thrones twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white garments, and upon their heads golden crowns.


These are the earliest angelic beings - ELDERS - of the creation of God.
And they were deputy authorities with crowns reigning on behalf of thier Creator over His creation, that is until man is completely brought to God's salvation.

But these most ancient and earliest elders of the universe know that because of God's eternal purpose they and all other things came into being.

The twenty-four elders will fall before Him who sits upon the throne and worship Him who lives forever and ever; and they will cast their crowns before the throne, saying, You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive the glory and the honor and the power, for You have created all things, and because of Your will they were, and were created.

We also have pwerful evidence in Paul's letter to the Ephesians. Paul says before God laid the foundation of the world He had a "good pleasure" of a plan in His heart to have sons of God with His life and nature. He marked out a destiny for some - predestinating them in Christ to sonship. In fact the implication is that BECAUSE of this plan to have these sons of God He then created all things. He then laid the foundation of the world.

Even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and without blemish before Him in love,
Predestinating us unto sonship through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, (Eph. 1:4,5)


We are not accidents. We are here according to the good pleasure in the Creator's heart to have sons within whom
are the life and nature and expression of God. Only His Godhead remains exclusively of the Father.
What in the above is something other than what I was saying about The Universal Mind?
Except that I did not apply the naming of the minds of gods.


The problem I find with religion is that it draws folk into worshiping images of gods for purposes which seldom contribute to honest evaluation and broader understanding, largely because these are presented as mythology and the mythology isn't translated to actuality and in that, the imagery presents a distortion of reality.
Supernaturalism, iow.
 
What in the above is something other than what I was saying about The Universal Mind?
Except that I did not apply the naming of the minds of gods.
I am not sure what you mean. But any MIND is of a life and a person.
Are you proporting a person-LESS great Mind? That makes no sense to me, having no living being yet the Mind of one.

I would rather think such a Mind was that of a Person albeit Someone bigger than you and I - transcending time, transcending matter, uncreated, powerful enough to create all other things. Also creating a unique creature - human beings who REFLECT that Person's image and likeness. Also that Mind expressing the highest level of morality, the highest level of what OUGHT to be from human behavrior.

Does your person-less mind have no concern for moral standard ?
If so I would say our human minds are on a higher level of being than this person-less, a-moral Mind of apathy.



The problem I find with religion is that it draws folk into worshiping images of gods for purposes which seldom contribute to honest evaluation and broader understanding,
Could you give me your one or two best examples of why my love of Jesus Christ discourages "honest evaluation and broader understanding?" Don't save your best/s examples for latter. Give it to me right up front - (your most striking one or two examples of this).


largely because these are presented as mythology and the mythology
Without begging the question I want you to show where my "honest evaluation and broader understanding" is necessarily hampered because I find Christ believable according to words, deeds, and experience of NT teaching.

It sounds so far like your default position is that of course the documents of the New Testament are myths.

As a 18 year old I was suprised to meet a Christian who told me that he was first an atheist.
This suprised me in 1968 because I assumed the direction of change was always the other way around.
Ie. One starts out as a God believer and moves from that position to one of atheism.

Here was an intelligent man older than I admitting that his journey was the opposite of what I thought was the usual natural progression - one sheds his theism in favor of something more realistic - atheism.

Have you honestly evaluated the integrity of moral uprightness of Jesus of Nazareth?
Does He appear to you as one given to lying, falsehood, charlatanism, trickery, self-serving scamming?
Is your evaluation of the deeds and words of Jesus Christ far less in moral chacter than someone else?
Who is that someone else whose integrity far exceeds that displayed by Jesus of Nazareth?


As for "distortion of reality" fostered by a belief in Christ's words about Himself and His deeds,
give me your one or two or BIGGEST suspected New Testament produced "distortion of reality" for you.


And I would like to see how these major alledged distortions of reality effect any major tenet of my faith.
 
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I believe that William is trying to remove the supernatural element while also expressing a type of panpsychism. But I would caution though even some natural explanations can get complex, as well.
Yes. I am not saying that the subject isn't complex but that adding the extra layer Supernaturalism, only adds to the complexity.
I believe that if free-will is possible, then consciousness would likely play a big role in how that would work. And perhaps it wouldn't be the type of consciousness that's isolated to our brains, but a broader one, hence panpsychism.

The Will appears to be integrated with consciousness - the system of Consciousness/The Mind.
In the broader sense, even if we just stepped it up to Planet Consciousness/Mind - what is being thought of as possible, is that such a mind would be no more isolated (however we measure that) than a Human one.

But I'm not there yet with accepting any broader type of consciousness. I think the evidence can show that consciousness can exist without or beyond the body. That's as far as I go.
Is this to say that you wouldn't go so far as accepting that the evidence shows that the Planet is likely mindful?
 
The problem of having to consider about the supernatural is this.

No matter how you slice and dice the universe, no matter how minutely you subdivide its components, the reason for itself must lie outside of itself.

Regardless of how we subdivide down to atominc and sub aromic and quantum level components, the reason for their existence must be looked for outside of themselves. This necessarily requires us to consider the supernatural.

Look at the sentences of this post. We know that pixels are arranged to form letters which convey thoughts unless it is just gibberish randomly fired off. We cannot assume that the meaning these sentences is generated from the chemicals or materials of the computer or computer screen themselves. An outer agent not the PC imposes meaning in information onto the letters typed.

The smallest fundamental building block of the universe still needs something outside of the universe to account for its existence. And outside of the universe is not natural but supernatural.