What is the part about “ . . as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness . . ” two verses before John 3:16 ? ?

[Multicolored Lemur]

So, we have the majestic poetry, and hope and promise of John 3:16

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”​

(King James Version)​

Bible Gateway passage: John 3 - King James Version

There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily...

www.biblegateway.com

And I can see why many Christians believe in salvation by faith alone. Although other verses in the New Testament do talk about works.

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But then we have John 3:14 & 15:
“And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.”

This refers to Numbers 21, which is neither one of the more uplifting nor believeable parts of the Old Testament. I’m sorry, but it’s just not.

 

[Multicolored Lemur]

Numbers 21: 5 & 6:

“5 And the people spake against God, and against Moses, Wherefore have ye brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? for there is no bread, neither is there any water; and our soul loatheth this light bread.​

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“6 And the Lord sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.”​

(King James Version)​

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Bible Gateway passage: Numbers 21 - King James Version

And when king Arad the Canaanite, which dwelt in the south, heard tell that Israel came by the way of the spies; then he fought against Israel, and took some of them prisoners. And Israel vowed a vow unto the LORD, and said, If thou wilt indeed deliver this people into my hand, then I will...

www.biblegateway.com

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This is where the God of the Old Testament is a bad mob boss. For a good mob boss would realize that loyalty is a two-way street. And he (or less commonly, she) would probably subscribe to the reality principle. That if people are hungry, yeah, they’re going to grouse and complain. What in the world would you expect differently?

If I was still an evangelical Christian, I would probably say that God had tried working with the people again and again. Even though it doesn’t say that.

 

[Multicolored Lemur]

Numbers 21: 7 - 9:

“Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the Lord, and against thee; pray unto the Lord, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people.​

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“8 And the Lord said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.​

“9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.”​

(KJV)​

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Bible Gateway passage: Numbers 21 - King James Version

And when king Arad the Canaanite, which dwelt in the south, heard tell that Israel came by the way of the spies; then he fought against Israel, and took some of them prisoners. And Israel vowed a vow unto the LORD, and said, If thou wilt indeed deliver this people into my hand, then I will...

www.biblegateway.com

——————————————————————

Wow.

How is this anything other than a “graven image” ? ?

 

[Multicolored Lemur]

What Is The Rod Of Asclepius? - Education Is Around

Rod Of Asclepius: Asclepius is the god of Healing. He is the son of Apollo (god of healing, truth, and prophecy) and the nymph Coronis.

educationisaround.com

“While pregnant with Asclepius, Coronis secretly took a second, mortal lover. When Apollo found out, he sent Artemis to kill her. While Coronis burned on the funeral pyre, Apollo felt pity and rescued the unborn child from the corpse. Asclepius was taught about medicine and healing by the wise centaur Cheiron and became so skilled in it that he succeeded in bringing one of his patients back from the dead. Zeus, king of the gods, felt that the immortality of the Gods was threatened and struck down the healer with a thunderbolt. At Apollo’s request, Asclepius was placed among the stars as Ophiuchus, the serpent-bearer.”

It sounds like this Greek myth has a lot of action ! !

 

[AgnosticBoy]

This refers to Numbers 21, which is neither one of the more uplifting nor believeable parts of the Old Testament. I’m sorry, but it’s just not.

I'm following what you are saying so far, although I'm open to the idea that the supernatural aspects are true. I'm thinking you oppose it mostly on moral grounds based on your next post (post #2).

This is where the God of the Old Testament is a bad mob boss. For a good mob boss would realize that loyalty is a two-way street. And he (or less commonly, she) would probably subscribe to the reality principle. That if people are hungry, yeah, they’re going to grouse and complain. What in the world would you expect differently?

Agreed. That could've been handled differently.

How is this anything other than a “graven image” ? ?

I see some wiggle room for the Christian apologist. They can just say that it's not a representation of God. Like your previous point, I also question why would God choose to handle the situation this way instead of just taking away the snakes that were biting people.

If part of your question is if the account in Numbers 21 should be taken seriously, then I would say, yes. If the early Christians, including the author of John thought it was literal, then that would be the authoritative interpretation for Christians. The only people who could object to that are the non-Christian Jews of that time and now since it is their text.

Just my two cents.

 

[Multicolored Lemur]

. . . although I'm open to the idea that the supernatural aspects are true. . .

I’m more skeptical.

For example, I remember listening to an author who had compiled a book on “true” ghost stories in New England. One was about a series of seances in Vermont in which objects flew through the air and voices were heard. I asked him, we’re the people in a hypnotic trance?

He said, well, that was certainly part of it.

Meaning, that didn’t explain everything. Okay, I’ve long thought, urban legend is a big universe. But maybe even bigger than I’ve thought. Maybe people keep building on fantastical elements (aspects they can’t place in normal life) as they tell and retell the story even to themselves? I bought his book, read this chapter, but did not get any more information.

It was not a widely published book.

Of course, that shouldn’t make a difference. But it absolutely does in how seriously we take it.

Anyway, whether this case or another one of your own choosing (or even the brass serpent on a pole in the desert!), I’d be interested in how you go about looking at a claim of the supernatural.

 

[William]

The bible appears to be a story of the evolution of a creator-god as either mirrored by human understanding or projected as a false image of an actual real being.

I haven't decided either way as my jury is still out.

Perhaps the devil is in the details but the details are not in the bible...

 

[Multicolored Lemur]

. . . I'm thinking you oppose it mostly on moral grounds . . .

That makes it sound like I’m some overly-sensitive person who, for example, objects to the company advertisement for being misleading. But I can still work there as long as I’m not directly involved in this part, because the contract is still honest, etc, etc.

It makes me sound weak.

What I’m saying is the Bible is not near as good as advertised. And this part in particular has some big problems. Not only is it montrous to kill people for complaining about being hungry, it’s just plain stupid. This whole part is a camp fire story, no more, no less:

(1) The people moan and complain for being hungry.

(2) God sends “fiery” serpents to bite them.

(3) The people repent for “have spoken against the Lord, and against thee [meaning Moses].”

(4) God instructs Moses to build a brass serpent [how long does this take? esp. when measured against the right now life-and-death situation]

(5) Then whoever looks at this brass serpent [shades of Greek myths] is magically cured [my words].

And some Christians say they’re against magic! I think they should read their own holy book.


It’s a crummy screenplay. And I basically had to become a screenwriter to see this (although I have yet to make a dime screenwriting!).

 

[Multicolored Lemur]

The bible appears to be a story of the evolution of a creator-god as either mirrored by human understanding or projected as a false image of an actual real being.

I haven't decided either way as my jury is still out.

Perhaps the devil is in the details but the details are not in the bible...

More power to you!

I was an evangelical Christian starting at age 13, for almost two years. I’ve basically been an atheist since age 15.

Did not read the Bible till about age 50. And even the New Testament has some major probs, although the New Testament also has some inspiring parts and a very good version of the Golden Rule.

Our admin @AgnosticBoy has asked that I try to keep threads to one topic. But look for other threads soon.

In addition, both the Old and New Testaments were recorded in almost pre-literate societies in which writing was expensive and slow. And once written down, seemingly locked in place for all time.

 

[William]

More power to you!

Indeed.

I was an evangelical Christian starting at age 13, for almost two years. I’ve basically been an atheist since age 15.

Sorry to hear that.

Seriously though, I intend to attempt to give you information which may help you change your position to Agnostic Theist. Hopefully your atheism is not so ingrained as to make my task an impossibility/waste of time [please give me a heads up now on that.]

Did not read the Bible till about age 50. And even the New Testament has some major probs, although the New Testament also has some inspiring parts and a very good version of the Golden Rule.

Agreed

Our admin @AgnosticBoy has asked that I try to keep threads to one topic. But look for other threads soon.

I hope so. Something other than religion would be great too.

In addition, both the Old and New Testaments were recorded in almost pre-literate societies in which writing was expensive and slow. And once written down, seemingly locked in place for all time.

Campfire stories we agree. But I have found there are hidden things therein to be explored...

Cheers!

W