Can there be a rational version of the supernatural?

[AgnosticBoy]

I decided to start this topic based on William's insightful convo with ChatGPT regarding the supernatural.

A lot of people tend to associate the supernatural with ignorance. I can see why that happens when the supernatural is often used to explain the unknown. Oftentimes, the supernatural explanations are lacking in reasonable details, like why, how, mechanisms, etc. No different than your God of the gaps.. for anything unknown just say God did it. But I'd like to think that that is just one version of the supernatural.

I question why we can't also have a rational concept of supernatural, and one that we can apply to the real world. That would of course mean that the laws of nature are not absolute or don't apply to everyone.

For Debate...
1. When should we classify something as being supernatural? Or will it always be used for unknown/mysterious phenomena and experiences?
2. Assuming that a supernatural event does occur, can it be explained rationally? Or are supernatural events unreasonable or unexplainable, in principle?

We can also debate on the definition of the supernatural here if that topic comes up.

 

[William]

What is a "supernatural event"?
Can you give an example?

 

[AgnosticBoy]

What is a "supernatural event"?
Can you give an example?

If you say that anything is possible, then the concept of supernatural wouldn't be needed. Anyone could potentially do anything- just a matter of know-how.

But if we accept that the Universe operates a certain way, when something conflicts with that then it would be in the realm of the supernatural.

Given these two points, I could also ask a materialist what can't happen (under materialism). Then if it does happen, it would be supernatural.

I would think everyone would fall into one of the two camps unless there's a false dichotomy that I'm not seeing.

 

[AgnosticBoy]

Given these two points, I could also ask a materialist what can't happen (under materialism). Then if it does happen, it would be supernatural.

To piggyback off this point, I think the materialist should explain why or how the resurrection wasn't supernatural. In the end though, I don't care what anyone labels such an event (call it a rare natural event) just as long as they don't deny the event itself.

 

[William]

A false dichotomy - assuming that there are only two possible positions to take on the matter.

Such as either Materialist OR Supernaturalist.

Atheist, OR Theist.

It is important what we call any event. If we are to go along with the resurrection being a true story, we do not have to go along with it being a supernatural event.

Or - you can explain why an agnostic should only work with the two popular options.

 

[AgnosticBoy]

It is important what we call any event. If we are to go along with the resurrection being a true story, we do not have to go along with it being a supernatural event.

What would you call the resurrection? If you say natural, you'll have a bunch of materialists, and even theists, waiting to question you.

 

[William]

I would argue it can be explained as the result of an advance technology.

 

[AgnosticBoy]

I would argue it can be explained as the result of an advance technology.

That's one potential answer. I would even broaden the answer to say it's some advanced ability (including but not limited to tech). But to me, that is still not enough to eliminate the concept of the supernatural. Not entirely, at least. I say this because I can think of logical scenarios where you'd have a law of nature, and then have some advanced ability to suspend or violate it. In other words, the supernatural then is not limited to magic (although it's traditionally thought to be), but can have its own laws and mechanisms.

Unfortunately, I think a lot these topics are bogged down by assumptions about the nature of the natural laws (whether they apply conditionally vs. absolute, whether they are static vs. evolving, etc) and the nature of the supernatural (whether it is limited to magic vs. laws/mechanisms of its own). Materialists assume that the laws of nature are absolute. Theists/religionists assume that the supernatural is magic or beyond reason.

 

[William]

My point is that both materialist and supernaturalist philosophies can be questioned through the bridging naturalist philosophy.

Materialists often hand-wave away or place advanced tech under the category of supernatural stuff. For example, the following comment:

We all know how the religious right are science - skeptic. The mustwatch critical thinking training vid 'open minded' opines that those who are easily open to supernatural claims are also skeptical of science. Why? Because critical thinking and science questions, delays acceptance and debunks gods, ghosts and Ancient ET technology. (SOURCE)

Re the resurrection there is way less evidence to support that event occurred than there are for things related to advanced tech, so it is reasonable to think that if there was a resurrection, then advanced tech should be considered the best reason such happened - regardless of the implications this has on the beliefs folk are encouraged to have re the reasons for the resurrection.

One of the problems with adding an extra layer of complexity to an already complex situation, is that it raises the question as to whether yet another layer exists and created the layer we think of as supernatural....and so on.

My thinking is similar to what this personality talks about in this video - and from my perspective - confirms what I have been thinking for many years now.

When you find the time, please read what I have offered in the thread I created, as the information might help you understand better where I am coming from.

The Bridging Natural Philosophy.​

 

[AgnosticBoy]

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Interesting perspective about God being an Alien. The alien explanation is appealing because it doesn't involve magical explanations. I can imagine an advanced race of beings with advanced technology and how they would be taken as gods to a primitive race.

I think it's very possible that extraterrestrials visited ancient man, and I also think they are coming back.
Here's an ominous version of that from the movie, Prometheus:

(skip to about the 50 second mark, which you see an early Earth scene)