Is the mythicist view of Jesus valid? Did Jesus never exist?

[AgnosticBoy]

Here's a CNN article that sums up the approach of the Christ Myth theories for Jesus:

But there is another view of Jesus that’s been emerging, one that strikes at the heart of the Easter story.
A number of authors and scholars say Jesus never existed. Such assertions could have been ignored in an earlier age. But in the age of the Internet and self-publishing, these arguments have gained enough traction that some of the world’s leading New Testament scholars feel compelled to publicly take them on.

Those who argue against Jesus’ existence make some of these points:

• The uncanny parallels between pagan stories in the ancient world and the stories of Jesus.
• No credible sources outside the Bible say Jesus existed.
• The Apostle Paul never referred to a historical Jesus.

Source: CNN

On the last bullet point, I remember mythicist using that to say that the apostle Paul only saw a vision of Jesus, and that he shouldn't count as a witness due to that.

The majority of biblical scholars do not accept the mythicist position, but I think it would be good to understand why and how do they deal with some views.

For Debate:
1. What's your view on the Christ Myth theories? Is there any strong evidence for any of the 3 bullet proof points in the article?
2. Are there reasonable responses to the points made by Christ Myth theorists and their approach?

 

[Scooter]

Hahaha...of course CNN will offer positions that deny the existence of Jesus Christ. They are just the propaganda machine for liberals and liberals hate everything Christian. Their position is total rubbish. For starters, there are non-Biblical accounts written by non-Christians about Jesus Christ. A simple internet search reveals that first century writers such as Josephus, Tacitus, Pliny the Younger, Suetonius, and Lucian all made mention of Jesus Christ. Next, there are no contemporaneous writings that deny the Gospels. For instance, there is nothing that refutes the feeding of the 5000. There is nothing that denies the resurrection by anyone present at the time. Surely if these things found in the Gospels were not true, someone would have come along and said, "I was there, and that never happened." Folks denying the word of God was the tactic the serpent used to trick Adam and Eve, and that old serpent is still using the same method to fool people today. The only difference is Satan is now using liberals and the media to oppose the Word of God. CNN...hahaha...fake news!

 

[Multicolored Lemur]

The majority of biblical scholars do not accept the mythicist position, but I think it would be good to understand why and how do they deal with some views.

someone who taken this view is Richard Carrier. In fact, I think he crowd sourced his first book as a professional historian on maybe ?? kickstarter. And the topic people really wanted him to dive into was — Did Jesus really exist?

And I think he concluded ?? 2/3’s chance Jesus did not exist. More likely the story percolated upward from one of the many mystery cults at the time.

A person can also hear Richard interviewed by different atheists on YouTube.

Two I like are “Paulogia” and the “friendly atheist.” Don’t know whether they’ve interviewed Richard.

 

[Multicolored Lemur]

A simple internet search reveals that first century writers such as Josephus, Tacitus, Pliny the Younger, Suetonius, and Lucian all made mention of Jesus Christ.

I’m going to call you out on Josephus. He made two mentions of Jesus, one short, but one long and lush. But I think the overwhelming majority of scholars view this 2nd one as a later addition. The word they use is “interposition.”

“interpolation”

 

[Multicolored Lemur]

August 2024

And since it always seems to come up, Yes, a person can be moral without religion. From earlier this month, this is actor Colin Farrell who has a son with a rare type of intellectual disability. It’s called Angelman syndrome, because the person is generally happy and often laughs.

And Colin is expanding the circle. He’s starting a foundation to help BOTH his own son AND families facing similar challenges.


PS Colin probably believed in God. Most people do. And either way is perfectly okay.

 

[AgnosticBoy]

Moderator Comment to all members:
Lets try to stay on topic and avoid any inflammatory comments.

 

[AgnosticBoy]

1. What's your view on the Christ Myth theories?

My view on the Christ Myth theories is that in the words of Matt Dillahunty, host of the Atheist Experience, they are "bat sh*t crazy". He said this during a debate.

Translation: Christ Myth Theories come off as being wild conspiracy theories.

And I agree with him. There are so many different elements from different myths strung together. It's like any little hole in the details is automatically filled in speculation by these theorists. Of course, I don't expect the biblical writers to just come out and say that they copied material from other myths, but any notion that they did is simply speculation, or inference, at best. But as I mentioned before, it's a terrible inference that strings together so many different elements, perhaps a lot of times with very loose connections, that it is hardly believable. In short, I question the way the associations to other writings are made, and if someone can just pick at anything to find some similarities if they tried hard enough.

Is there any strong evidence for any of the 3 bullet proof points in the article?

I question what type of evidence we'd expect to find for the Christ Myth theory to be valid. I'd expect there to be some word-for-word or concept-to-concept copying, but those associations should be strong. I'd expect the evidence for Jesus's existence to be very weak.

I think on both fronts, we don't have that. If anything, we have evidence to the contrary when it comes to Jesus's existence. Eventhough the Apostle Paul may've had a "vision" of Jesus, but others are reported to have witnessed him physically. Paul didn't go through suffering for his faith simply based off of a vision, but he also went off of what first-hand witnesses told him.

Read here for more on my view on Jesus's existence:

Post in thread 'Was Jesus a real person or a myth?'

Jun 28, 2021

My view, which I believe is the view of most New Testament scholars, is that Jesus was a real person and that his followers added some mythical elements to him after his death. One benefit of this view is that it factors in the evidence from history and some of the non-historical (much of the supernatural attributions) elements.

I can't buy into the view that Jesus was a complete myth because it ignores some of the strong evidence, like the evidence for the existence of James, Jesus's brother. If Jesus's brother existed, as mentioned in Josephus, then why wouldn't Jesus have existed...

• AgnosticBoy

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[Scooter]

I’m going to call you out on Josephus. He made two mentions of Jesus, one short, but one long and lush. But I think the overwhelming majority of scholars view this 2nd one as a later addition. The word they use is “interposition.”

I’ve heard that argument before. So tell me what is the evidence that the longer reference was added later?

 

[Multicolored Lemur]

Of course, I don't expect the biblical writers to just come out and say that they copied material from other myths, but any notion that they did is simply speculation, or inference, at best.

At different times, I’ve done a deep dive into the idea that there’s just less to the Bible than evangelical Christians tell us there is. I did this thread —

Mark 4:12 Jesus speaks in parables “‘ . . lest they should turn and be forgiven.’” ? ?​

And it really says that, as clear as a bell. And this is Jesus saying that. Now, evangelicals have an exceeding high threshold of what counts as a “contradiction.” All the same, this certainly contradicts the spirit of later teachings of Jesus. And maybe even some word for word, but I don’t think that 2nd step is necessary. And even if we get really close word-for-word, evangelicals will wiggle out of it. They have to. It’s their whole world view.

It’s more likely that early Christian writings were compilations from written and spoken legends which were then circulating.

If we instead take the Bible as an ancient book to be treated with respect, still written by people, and we pull out the miracles such as walking or water and the loaves and fishes,

how much is left?

Maybe there was a regular guy who was an “end times” preacher, around whom all this lore and legend grew up.

Or maybe,

There were several such preachers and early stories and writings made them into a “composite” ? ? ?

At the end of the day, I’m more concerned with how we can live in the here and now. And how we can find multiple sources of motivation to both do right by ourselves and others.

—————————————-


PS I’m interested in mixed marriages in which one spouse is, for example, a Hindu and the other a Christian.

If I was married, I’d be happy to occasionally attend church with my wife, and look for both the good and the bad.

 

[AgnosticBoy]

I know the claim about Josephus was made here, but I think it's important enough to address by itself. Will create a new thread for it!

Topic started on Josephus:

Featured Thread 'Does Josephus mention Jesus?'

Aug 31, 2024

I've heard many Christian apologists and even some non-Christians claim that Josephus's writings confirm Jesus's existence. I can agree with them that if Josephus wrote about Jesus, then that would serve as corroborating and independent source for Jesus's existence. The problem that I run into is that looking up this topic brings up mixed results. Some sources support the claim, while others completely deny the authenticity of Josephus references to Jesus.

Here's some relevant background...Josephus makes two references to Jesus in his book called, Antiquities of the Jews.

Here are the...

• AgnosticBoy

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